Jac-shirt Patch Placement

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Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby ThunderingWind » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:36 pm

OK...So the Philmont Bull goes on the right front shoulder and the Sea Base Conch shell and the Northern Tier Loon go on the back, correct?

Any particular location for them on the back?

Santa brought my a Jac Coat for Christmas by taking advantage of the big sale the National Supply branch had before Christmas.
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby RWSmith » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:30 am

Well, the current BSA Insignia Guide states:

Jackets and Their Insignia
Multicolored jackets in nylon, wool, and poplin are available for optional wear by youth members and adult leaders. The universal emblem should be worn on the left pocket or, in case of a jacket without chest pockets, in the same area. The Philmont bull emblem is especially designed for the red wool jac-shirt to be sewn on the left side above the pocket. On all jackets the Philmont Scout Ranch, Philmont Training Center, or high-adventure base emblems may be worn centered on the right pocket or in the same relative position if there is no pocket. The Order of the Arrow has adopted the jac-shirt as its official jacket, and members may wear the 6-inch national Order of the Arrow patch centered on the back. The large Philmont, NESA, jamboree, National Camping School, Scoutmaster Award of Merit, and international participant emblems are approved to be worn on the back of the jacket. Only one such emblem may be worn at a time. The Venture/Varsity letter may be worn on the center of the right side of the red or blaze nylon or poplin jacket. In all cases, the lightweight jacket is an alternate for the jac-shirt, and this insignia may be worn on it in the same way.

  • Sea base conch shell, worn on back of jacket or jac-shirt.
     
  • Canoe base loon, worn on left side of jacket or jac-shirt above pocket.
     
  • Philmont bull, worn on left side of jacket or jac-shirt above pocket.
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby ThunderingWind » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:21 am

Thank you for the correction.

So, how does one wear the Bull AND the Loon, for those that have been to both?

Or am I reading this to understand that ONLY one may be worn at any time from the "approved" list and NOT MORE than one?
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:30 pm

Of course the answer is "3 across" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby ronin718 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:13 am

ThunderingWind wrote:So, how does one wear the Bull AND the Loon, for those that have been to both?

Sew them together into one patch, then sew it on the jacket in the appropriate location. :D
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby ThunderingWind » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:31 am

ronin718 wrote:Sew them together into one patch, then sew it on the jacket in the appropriate location. :D

Funny and one way to look at it.

But seriously, can only one National Location patch be on the jacket at a time?
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby FrankJ » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:12 pm

If you speaking of good taste.... Too many patches look gaudy on some people, but not others. The Jac-shirt is not really part of the official uniform so I would not try to get national validation for it. Do what you like. But then I am an renegade.
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby RWSmith » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:53 pm

FrankJ wrote:The Jac-shirt is not really part of the official uniform...

Yes it is. [Dur.]

ThunderingWind wrote:So, how does one wear the Bull AND the Loon, for those that have been to both?

Argh!

First and foremost, and this is very important... the Philmont bull and Canoe Base loon are both truly unique in their classification as official BSA insignia. These two patches are NOT "universal, required or mandatory insignia" -- nor are they "temporary insignia".

Second, there is no guidance whatsoever for wearing both, the Philmont bull and the Canoe Base (a.k.a., Northern Tier) loon, at the same time. And, to my knowledge, there is no supplemental guidance.

Furthermore, it should also be noted that, unlike the Philmont bull, there is no guidance under the "Jackets and Their Insignia" section regarding the placement of the Canoe Base loon, which is only referenced (oddly) under "Venturing Participation".

So, IMO, you have three options:

  1. Since both are reserved for the same position, only one is allowed at a time. (Eh, well... that sucks.)
  2. Wear the bull -or- the loon above the left chest pocket; and then... wear the participant patch (NOT the bull or loon) representing the other high-adventure base (Philmont or Northern Tier) centered on the right chest pocket. (Yeah, well... that kinda sucks, too.)
  3. Since the Insignia Guide is silent on a position for secondary placement, and since there's nothing reserved for placement above the right pocket, you could put one of them there. (Hmm. Yeah but, that's quite a stretch.)

When in doubt, I always try to fall back on what I call "Uniform/Insignia Rule #1"...

BSA Insignia Guide wrote:"Members should make every effort to keep their uniforms neat and uncluttered."

Like FrankJ said, less is better. But, I have seen (once or twice, maybe) 'Option 3' noted above; and I must say... surprisingly, it does work.

I've also seen (one time) placement of both above the left pocket... and it looked really, really gaudy. Just plain bad. Just my opinion.


=======================================

ThunderingWind wrote:Or am I reading this to understand that ONLY one may be worn at any time from the "approved" list and NOT MORE than one?

You are correct... "Only one such emblem may be worn at a time." is in reference to the sentence immediately preceding... e.g., these large patches specifically designed for wear on the back of the jac-shirt or jacket (and frankly, are too large to go anywhere else).

=======================================

The following is solely my personal, UNOFFICIAL, opinion... if I were allowed to re-write the "Jackets and Their Insignia" section, this is how I would put it:

RWSmith wrote:Jackets and Their Insignia
Multi-colored jackets in nylon, wool, and poplin are available for optional wear by youth members and adult leaders. In all cases, the "official" lightweight jacket is an alternative for the jac-shirt, and jacket insignia may be worn on it in the same way. When a jacket does not have chest pockets, placement is in the same relative position.

The B.S.A. universal emblem is worn centered on the left pocket.

The Philmont "bull" and Canoe Base "loon" emblems are especially designed for the jac-shirt. Single award is sewn on the left side above the pocket. If both are worn, the Philmont "bull" is worn on the left side above the pocket and the Canoe Base "loon" is to be sewn on the right side above the pocket.

On all jackets, one Philmont Scout Ranch, Philmont Training Center, or other high-adventure base "participant" or "staff" temporary insignia may be worn centered on the right chest pocket.

The large Order of the Arrow, Philmont, NESA, jamboree, National Camping School, Scoutmaster Award of Merit, Sea Base conch shell, and international participant emblems are approved to be worn on the back of the jacket. Only one such emblem may be worn at a time.

The Venture/Varsity letter may be worn on the center of the right side of the red or blaze nylon or poplin jacket.

Also my personal, UNOFFICIAL, opinion... the following images (in the Insignia Guide) DO NOT BELONG UNDER "Venturing Participation" (as they are not Venturing-program specific) and should be MOVED to a more appropraite sub-heading, if not their own sub-heading... e.g., "High Adventure Insignia", and here's how I'd write it:

RWSmith wrote:High Adventure Insignia
  • Philmont bull, worn on left side of jacket or jac-shirt above pocket.
     
  • Canoe base loon, worn on left side of jacket or jac-shirt above pocket. (NOTE: If Philmont bull is already worn, this may be placed on right side of jacket or jac-shirt above pocket.)
     
  • Sea base conch shell, worn on back of jacket or jac-shirt.
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby ThunderingWind » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:08 pm

Thank you.

I sure wish the BSA would publish a version of AR 670-1, and make everything clear as possible.

A patch to replace the Bull, Loon and Conch should be made available for those that complete the tri-fecta.
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby razor_strop » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:46 pm

ThunderingWind wrote:A patch to replace the Bull, Loon and Conch should be made available for those that complete the tri-fecta.


I agree--it should be a tall stack of $100 bills embroidered in bullion thread. :wink:
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby 9009scoutmaster » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:15 pm

ThunderingWind wrote:Thank you.

I sure wish the BSA would publish a version of AR 670-1, and make everything clear as possible.

A patch to replace the Bull, Loon and Conch should be made available for those that complete the tri-fecta.

Then again what will the patch look like for the new high-adventure base when it opens :idea:
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby RWSmith » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:21 pm

razor_strop wrote:
ThunderingWind wrote:A patch to replace the Bull, Loon and Conch should be made available for those that complete the tri-fecta.

I agree--it should be a tall stack of $100 bills embroidered in bullion thread. :wink:

More like (did you mean?) fully-embroidered... specially woven from $100 bills and bronze, gold, and silver bullion threads. :wink:

9009scoutmaster wrote:Then again what will the patch look like for the new high-adventure base when it opens

Oh, that one's easy... it'll be an image of wagionvigil's head (and beard). :lol:
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby FrankJ » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:31 pm

I was thinking that is not part official field uniform which would be socks, pants, (belt?) & shirt. Which is the "required" uniform which really is not required.
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby RWSmith » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:06 pm

FrankJ wrote:I was thinking that is not part official field uniform which would be socks, pants, (belt?) & shirt. Which is the "required" uniform which really is not required.

Well, I knew that. But, the way your wrote it... well, I just couldn't help myself. (Sorry.) :mrgreen:
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:04 pm

Did I mention 3 across? :P
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby razor_strop » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:47 pm

RWSmith wrote:More like (did you mean?) fully-embroidered... specially woven from $100 bills and bronze, gold, and silver bullion threads. :wink:


We have a winner! :lol:

At least your suggestion seems more accurate to my experiences (this summer will be National HA Base #2; traveling to Sea Base from CO, after sending him to NT two summers ago and a council HA program in WY this past summer). What the heck, it's just money, and you can't put a price on the self-confidence they gain and the memories the gather.
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby biglou » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:04 am

I put the Philmont Bull and the 2010 NSJ patch on my Jac-shirt that I got for me for Christmas. They both look sweet! Those are the only patches that are going on there. I probably will give it to my nephew someday.
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby jr56 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:44 pm

Sounds like a really nice Christmas present to me.
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby ThunderingWind » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:46 pm

jr56 wrote:Sounds like a really nice Christmas present to me.

I liked it. I now need to figure out to soften the new wool so it is not as dry and scratchy feeling.

My "Leader Conch" will be sewn on next week.
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Re: Jac-shirt Patch Placement

Postby mt_goodrich » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:51 pm

I thought I read somewhere that with the Philmont Bull, its tail goes over the shoulder if you hiked over the Tooth of Time into base camp. If you didn't, the tail doesn't go over the shoulder.
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