New Documents related to Eagle Proposals/Projects

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New Documents related to Eagle Proposals/Projects

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:16 am

Just released...one is a helpful Service Project Planning guidelines assist and the other is the highly anticipated Tools policy. Enjoy.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/healt ... 80-028.pdf

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/healt ... 80-027.pdf
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Re: New Documents related to Eagle Proposals/Projects

Postby FrankJ » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:13 pm

Hate to say it. But a five page form for a simple service project (-027)? Clearly a committee syndrome kind of idea. The questions on the form are not bad questions, well most of them anyway, but not every service project needs that kind of scrutiny. A properly done eagle project plan already addresses most of these questions.

Other questions the form brings up
How many units require non-scouts that show up to complete the health form?
How many units do a full blown reflection after every service project. (Start, stop, continue is a reflection). Not that doing some kind of reflection after a project is a bad thing. For eagle projects it is call completing the project write up.
How many people do you know that a)actually own a pair of steel toe boots? B) Of those how many only have them because their paid job requires them?
So ladders over 6 feet are not permitted on service projects?
Cubs are not allowed to bring their little red wagons to service projects?
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Re: New Documents related to Eagle Proposals/Projects

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:54 pm

FrankJ wrote:Hate to say it. But a five page form for a simple service project (-027)? Clearly a committee syndrome kind of idea. The questions on the form are not bad questions, well most of them anyway, but not every service project needs that kind of scrutiny. A properly done eagle project plan already addresses most of these questions.

Other questions the form brings up
How many units require non-scouts that show up to complete the health form?
How many units do a full blown reflection after every service project. (Start, stop, continue is a reflection). Not that doing some kind of reflection after a project is a bad thing. For eagle projects it is call completing the project write up.
How many people do you know that a)actually own a pair of steel toe boots? B) Of those how many only have them because their paid job requires them?
So ladders over 6 feet are not permitted on service projects?
Cubs are not allowed to bring their little red wagons to service projects?


Frank...I had your questions forwarded to the folks who hopefully will send back responses.
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Re: New Documents related to Eagle Proposals/Projects

Postby FrankJ » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:14 pm

Frank...I had your questions forwarded to the folks who hopefully will send back responses.


I hope they have a sense of humor, if not you may not be able to print their reply. :) Could I send them a copy of On A Clear Day You Can See General Motors? as well?

I do have some symphony for those guys. Its a hard thankless job. In the industrial world they are finally starting to admit you cannot design for zero risk.
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Re: New Documents related to Eagle Proposals/Projects

Postby 6yearscouter » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:49 pm

I'm trying to figure out what the big risk is of a post hole digger if you are making them wear steel toed shoes and not flip flops? They are either digging in a safe place or not. post hole diggers pinch fingers and bounce off of hard packed soil--whether you are older than 14 the risk seems about the same. and why can't a 14 year old paint with an extension pole? keeps them off the ladders. ;)

wheelbarrows as long as properly loaded don't seem to have that much risk either. An improperly loaded wheelbarrow is dangerous for anyoe. that is if a 1 or 2 wheeled cart = wheelbarrow?

I have an powered screwdriver that uses 2 AA batteries, so it would be ok because it uses batteries, even though it takes drill bits and will drill some pretty big/deep holes. List doesn't mention drills only screwdrivers? since an electric drill can be used as an electric screwdriver, is it ok to use it as a drill but not a screwdriver? are scouts regularly screwing screws into themselves?

I also do not see the inherent risk in a 11-14 year old using a small handheld sander or a dremel if given the proper training. these things are just as dangerous in the hands of a 14 year old, and being small handheld power tools doesn't make them safer just because a scout is a year older. I'd think a mention of air nail guns would be appropriate for the at least over 16 year olds.
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Re: New Documents related to Eagle Proposals/Projects

Postby FrankJ » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:59 am

The main focus really should on making sure your leadership understands the risks & has the right level of supervision. We can joke about leaders not having common sense & find lots of examples. But at the end of the day, if your leadership does not know what they are doing, guidelines & lists are not going to make you safe.

A good example from the list is a pressure washer. Never mind, scouts are not allowed to use a pressure washer of more than 100 PSI. That precludes scouts from using one that will be useful. But I work with a robotics club, so I will use them. Small pressure washers start at 1500PSI & rapidly go up to more useful pressures. Misused they can easily hurt & kill. The average 14 year old can use one quiet safely. You let a patrol size group of the same 14 year old use one unsupervised & bad things can happen.
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Re: New Documents related to Eagle Proposals/Projects

Postby razor_strop » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:02 am

Scouts can weld, climb, rappel, SCUBA dive, ride single track, use rifles/shotguns/bows, kayak, sail, use saws/knives/axes, whitewater, waterski, camp in the winter and participate in a host of other inherently dangerous activities, but they can't use the same standard power cutting tools used by middle and high school students in shop classes until they're adults? Whatever.

Regardless, thanks very much Matt for passing this along.
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Re: New Documents related to Eagle Proposals/Projects

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:21 am

6yearscouter wrote:wheelbarrows as long as properly loaded don't seem to have that much risk either. An improperly loaded wheelbarrow is dangerous for anyoe. that is if a 1 or 2 wheeled cart = wheelbarrow?

Yep, my kids were sneaking the wheelbarrow out of the garage to give themselves, and their buddies, wheelbarrow rides since one of them was big enough to hold it up. That was way younger than 14.

6yearscouter wrote:I also do not see the inherent risk in a 11-14 year old using a small handheld sander or a dremel if given the proper training. these things are just as dangerous in the hands of a 14 year old, and being small handheld power tools doesn't make them safer just because a scout is a year older.

I had to laugh when I read the dremel was only allowed for 14 and older. What about all of those Cub Scouts BSA was encouraging to use dremels on their PWD cars?

Then there is the lawn mower idiocy. Residential lawn mowers (self-propelled and riding) are only allowed for 16 and older? While I can understand somewhat the riding mowers, the restriction for self-propelled is just downright silly. Obviously the folks who wrote this up don't have their kids do yard chores, and/or hire gardeners. On your garden (sorry! ;) ) variety self-propelled home (residential) mower the self-propelling feature makes it easier for younger kids and creaky old folks (like me) to push the things around the yard. They also come with a variety of safety features, one of which is that a bar has to be held down to keep the front wheels engaged. Open your hands, and you have a manual push mower. My kids were cutting grass since they were taller than the mower handle. Again, younger than 14.
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Re: New Documents related to Eagle Proposals/Projects

Postby FrankJ » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:53 am

Big difference in letting son cut grass & letting a youth with an unknown skill set cut grass. I let my son use the riding mower at a much longer age than the push mower. Sitting on top of the blade is much safer than walking behind it to my way of thinking. I would not let him cut the small hill until he weighed more than the mower. Regardless of BSA policy, I would make sure that we had parent informed consent before allowing youth to use something similar to a mower.
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Re: New Documents related to Eagle Proposals/Projects

Postby ronin718 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:47 am

Nuts4Scouts wrote:Then there is the lawn mower idiocy. Residential lawn mowers (self-propelled and riding) are only allowed for 16 and older? While I can understand somewhat the riding mowers, the restriction for self-propelled is just downright silly. Obviously the folks who wrote this up don't have their kids do yard chores, and/or hire gardeners. On your garden (sorry! ;) ) variety self-propelled home (residential) mower the self-propelling feature makes it easier for younger kids and creaky old folks (like me) to push the things around the yard. They also come with a variety of safety features, one of which is that a bar has to be held down to keep the front wheels engaged. Open your hands, and you have a manual push mower. My kids were cutting grass since they were taller than the mower handle. Again, younger than 14.


And if you're really worried about the safety factor, you can always get the self-propelled mowers with a second bar disengages the blades when the bar is released. This keeps little Johnny, not to mention Big Jim, from getting his toes or fingers cut off if he slips.

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