Service Project Question for Star and Life

Scout Badge, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle Palms.

Moderators: Site Admin, Moderators

Service Project Question for Star and Life

Postby Billiken » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:22 pm

Looking for opinions/answers to a question re service project(s) for Star and Life.

I know that the Eagle project may not directly or indirectly benefit Scouting.

In reading the 2007 requirements there is no stipulation like this for the Star/Life service projects.
Basically, it says the project(s) "...must be approved by your Scoutmaster.."

My question is this; Can the hours for the Star/Life service project requirement be earned by perfroming service that benefits the BSA?
(Specifically, a conservation-related service project at a council camp)

THANKS.
"The only problem with Boy Scouts is, there aren't enough of them." Will Rogers
Billiken
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 937
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:27 pm
Location: Greater Cleveland Council

Postby optimist » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:25 pm

Yes
optimist
Adv Chair
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:25 pm
Location: Atlanta Area Council

Postby OldGreyBear » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:31 pm

as they say, Brevity is the soul of wit, so I shall not try to improve upon Optimist's most excellent response
OldGreyBear
Ephesians 6:4
Fathers, do not irritate and provoke your children to anger [do not exasperate them to resentment], but rear them [tenderly] in the training and discipline and the counsel and admonition of the Lord.
OldGreyBear
Eagle
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:17 am
Location: Minsi Trails Council

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:59 pm

I agree. You can also use hours that you might spend helping a scout with his Eagle project.
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Postby RWSmith » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:01 am

Well,

Beautiful; just beautiful. This thread merits a "Sticky".
RWSmith
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:45 am
Location: Mecklenburg County Council

Postby FrankJ » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:04 am

...must be approved by your scout master... So what would pass for service hours in one troop wouldn't necessarily pass in another troop. Our troop is pretty open on this. If a scout puts in hours in an organized project, he get the credit.

This really isn't a hard requirement for any scout that is following the principles of scouting.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Postby evmori » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:06 am

FrankJ wrote:...must be approved by your scout master... So what would pass for service hours in one troop wouldn't necessarily pass in another troop. Our troop is pretty open on this. If a scout puts in hours in an organized project, he get the credit.

This really isn't a hard requirement for any scout that is following the principles of scouting.


Excellent answer! Agree!
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Postby scouter01 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:41 pm

I did some of my hours at Lost Valley Scout Ranch ( the boy scout camP)
scouter01
Eagle
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:26 pm
Location: san diego imperial

Postby ynotquilt » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:07 pm

Continuing this thread, where does it state that nothing can be added or subtracted from a merit badge or rank advancement requirement? Our troop just informed me that my son's 40+ service hours helping with Cub Scout Day Camp do not count for his Life rank because they benefitted BSA. I want to be able to give them the "chapter and verse" where this "policy" of "no adding or subtracting" from requirements.

Thanks!
ynotquilt
Star
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:56 pm
Location: SE MI

Postby PaulSWolf » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:01 pm

ynotquilt wrote:Continuing this thread, where does it state that nothing can be added or subtracted from a merit badge or rank advancement requirement? Our troop just informed me that my son's 40+ service hours helping with Cub Scout Day Camp do not count for his Life rank because they benefitted BSA. I want to be able to give them the "chapter and verse" where this "policy" of "no adding or subtracting" from requirements.

Thanks!
Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures (#33088 - 2007 Printing) Page 23:
"No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from any advancement requirement"
Sounds like they're confusing the Service Project requirement for EAGLE which may not involve council property or other BSA activities. There's no such restriction on Second Class, Star, or Life service hours.
Paul S. Wolf, P.E.(Ret.) mailto:pwolf@usscouts.org
Secretary, US Scouting Service Project, Inc.
PaulSWolf
Counselor
 
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:17 pm
Location: Lake Erie Council , Cleveland, Ohio

Postby wagionvigil » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:02 pm

It says a 6 hour service project benefiting others approved "before starting" by the scoutmaster. The only restriction is for the Eagle Project that cannot benefit scouting. That is very specific. The others just say others. Cub Scouts would be others But it does say it must be pre approved by the SM.
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear, You're a Meal!"
wagionvigil
Counselor
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Postby RWSmith » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:32 am

I could be wrong on this; but,... I respectfully disagree regarding pre-approval. Following are the requirements, verbatum:
    Star: Req. 4. "While a First Class Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least six hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster."

    Life: Req. 4. "While a Star Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least six hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster."
There's no stipulation that the service hours must be pre-approved by the SM, only that the work the Scout performed meets the SM's approval. Somewhat unfortunately, the requirements, as they are written, are not clear as to define the SM's approval being pre- or post-work, nor are there any restrictions as to what type of work is allowed/disallowed. However, that may well be the intent... because what typically happens is that SMs will broadly (and, rightly so) interpret the requirements so as to credit the Scout for any type of meaningful service project work (whether it benefits Scoutnig, or not; whether it was pre-approved by the SM, or not). One of the major items discussed at a Star or Life candidate's SMC, will be about the Scout's service project work; how he felt about the project itself; how he felt abouit his role, including his exercising leadership, if any was required.

So, as long as the work done by the Scout could be viewed a service project work, then the SM (almost always) approves the hours. However, if the SM says no, then it's no. Period. [FWIW, I wouldn't dare refuse a Scout 6 hours credit for Star or Life after he spent 40 hours (an entire week) volunteering at Cub Day Camp, et al.]

Edit: Read the entire thread!!! -- RWSmith
Last edited by RWSmith on Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
RWSmith
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:45 am
Location: Mecklenburg County Council

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:05 am

If it is pre approved then we do not have this problem :P
When I was a SM I approved anything that was worthwhile. The boys have a hard enough time without artificial barirers
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear, You're a Meal!"
wagionvigil
Counselor
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Postby Chief J » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:13 am

All excellent responses, don't know that I can add anything more.

Best Regards, Keep up the good work,
Chief J
Chief J
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:01 am
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Council

Postby evmori » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:53 am

It might not say pre-approved but common sense tells you that they should be pre-approved. What happens if the Scout does a service project the Scoutmaster doesn't approve?
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:47 am

Sounds like this is one of them :(
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear, You're a Meal!"
wagionvigil
Counselor
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Postby RWSmith » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:30 am

Okay, here's a bit of a conundrum...
    Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures, BSA Supply No. 33088 (p. 27)...
      Service Projects...
        Star and Life Ranks..."For Star and Life ranks, a Scout must perform six hours of service to others. This may be done as an individual project or as a member of a partol or troop project. Star and Life service projects may be approved for Scouts assisting on Eagle service projects. The Scoutmaster approves the project before it is started." (Emphasis added.)
Now, that being said: "It is what it is."

So, it would seem to be incumbent upon the SM to teach the Scouts in his/her Troop that there is a distinction between giving "service to others" and receiving credit for "service project hours." Whereas, the latter must always and individually be approved by the SM, in advance. [If this is not made clear by the SM, and the only dis-qualifying issue being the request was made after the fact, I would think it only fair to defer to the Scout's service as creditable.] Besides, service projects aren't done in order to enable Scouts to check off some rank requirement; they're done in order to benefit others or something (i.e., the environment), rather than one's self. And we hope (intend) that the results thereof will build strong character and good citizenship in the Scout(s).

I think that because of the fact that the Eagle rank specifically lays out the required pre-approvals and that the lesser rank requirements do not (specifically say "before"), some SMs out there in the field do approve such after-the-fact requests, at Second Class, Star and Life, not to mention the fact that the clarification is tucked into the Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures.

Anyhow, since I found this clarification, I wanted to bring it up, so as not to incorrectly mis-lead anyone from my previous post in this thread.... My bad. :roll:
RWSmith
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:45 am
Location: Mecklenburg County Council

Postby mhjacobson » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:46 pm

Hopefully, this, and other clarifications can be added to the Scoutmaster's handbook. There is a problem when important clarifications are in the advancement handbook, but not in the SM handbook. As a training chair, I expect to have a shelf full of BSA tomes, but the average SM certainly does not want to be carting a shelf full of manuals whith which to do his job!
50 year+ scouter -- have held almost all adult leader positions in Cubs, Scouts, & Venturing, currently serving as Council Scouting for Youth with Disabilities Chair.
mhjacobson
Eagle
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:39 pm
Location: DesPlaines Valley Council - Illinois

Postby Hubert » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:30 pm

Darn near all of my hours (for school and scouts) were earned out at Cub Camp. But as said before, the final call comes to the SM.
Justin
Asst. Scoutmaster
Eagle Scout Class of 2008
13 Years in scouting.
Hubert
Eagle
 
Posts: 460
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:10 pm
Location: Tall Pine Council

Postby longhorneagle » Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:23 pm

Yes
David
ASM, Eagle Scout
Bobwhite SR-763

"It's not the badges earned, it's the lessons learned"
longhorneagle
Second Class
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:45 pm
Location: Longhorn Council

Next

Return to Scout Badge, Tenderfoot through Life, and Eagle Palms

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests