Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Scout Badge, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle Palms.

Moderators: Site Admin, Moderators

Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:14 am

I thought I'd start a new discussion. There is an ongoing one on holding 2 BORs at one time but since the first three ranks can be worked on simultaneously why not just have one? Won't happen but how would you do it if you could? What would be added, combined, eliminated?

Here's a couple of ideas:

1. Earn the First Aid MB
2. Earn the Totin' Chip and Fireman Chit
3. Complete 3 Troop Campouts. Demonstrate you know the Outdoor Code and Leave No Trace principles
4. Cook at least 6 meals for your Troop. Make menus, ensure you have the proper equipment and use proper sanitation procedures to clean up.
5. Using knots and lashings make something useful for your campsite
6. Explain what your obligation to be a good Citizen, participate in a Flag ceremony. Participate in at least a one hour service project for your community.
7. Go on a 5 mile hike, Practice the safe hiking rules, use a map and compass to find direction and measure the height and/or width or 5 objects.
8. Find evidence and/or identify 10 plants and animals found in your area. Explain how to identify poisonous plants
8. Run or walk one mile in less than 10 minutes
9. Pass the BSA Swimmer Test
10. Give specific examples how you demonstrate Scout Spirit in your everyday life.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby alex gregory » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:01 pm

Children age 10 to 15 need regular positive reinforcement. It helps them know they are making progress, gives them new swag (everybody wants more patches) and fosters competition to advance. For that reason keeping the current rank advancement of Tenderfoot to First Class is the better way to go.

I know of some dojos that have only two ranks, white belt and black belt. They tend to have a lot fewer members than dojos that have the more traditional ranks white, yellow, green, brown, black etc. I think the same would happen if you have one rank for everyone until 1st Class.

If you really want to complete Trail to First Class all at once it's not that hard if you choose the right merit badges. Earn First Aid, Swimming, Pioneering, Orienteering, Camping, and Cooking merit badges plus a few extra requirements such as the occasional flag ceremony and you're basically done. Throw in Forestry, Mammal Studies and Cit. in Nation and it's a cake walk.
alex gregory
Eagle
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:32 pm
Location: Cascade Pacific Council

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:11 pm

I don't disagree that positive reinforcement is needed. If you had a sequential earning of the ranks, then you wouldn't have 3 unfinished ranks at one time, scouts stalled and the need to have 2 BORs on the same night. The way it is set up now, a scout could complete all the 1st class requirements before he completed the Tenderfoot ones.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby evmori » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:05 am

In my opinion, T-2-1 build on each other. Sure they can all be completed together but I don't feel they should be one rank. And as far as the BOR's go, if it's one or two or three is up to the Unit the Scout is a member of.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:00 pm

Ed...Not to worry. They are never going to be one rank.

Just was thinking and trying to figure out the growth a scout gets from doing all three rank requirements for First Aid in one sitting or if a scout can complete all the 1st class requirements before he completes all the Tenderfoot ones why not just do a 1st Class BOR?
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby Mrw » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:53 pm

I would just do one BOR for the multiple ranks if the boy earns them all at the same time. But the BOR adults and therefore the troop leadership should learn from the boy's history why he earned them all at once and help future scouts to not run into the same roadblocks.

While I would love to see the boys earning the ranks in succession, I do not see it as a problem that they can earn some 2nd and 1st class requirements while still finishing the tenderfoot ones. Better than having them not get credit for a skill when they learn it until they get the previous rank.
Mother of two Eagles and troop Advancement Chair
Mrw
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:49 pm
Location: Greater Cleveland

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby RWSmith » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:02 pm

Mrw wrote:I would just do one BOR for the multiple ranks if the boy earns them all at the same time.

Just so none of our readers misunderstands...

  • You cannot -ever- hold one BOR for multiple ranks. You can, however, hold BORs for TF, 2C & 1C in immediate succession. And there is no reason whatsoever why they can't be the same BOR members. (Edit: Although completely optional, I think --in this case-- if the same MCs sat on these boards, the benefit of this continuity would be better, not only for the Scout, but also for the board members -- just my opinion, though.)
  • A Scout must be reviewed on the currently eligible rank only; he must then be excused; and, the board must render a favorable decision on that rank before proceeding on to the next BOR for the next rank.
  • If you hold a BOR for two or more of these ranks simultaneously, what's going to happen if any of the board members disagree on what rank the Scout has achieved?
  • What kind of pressure would a Scout be under if his very first BOR was for TF, 2C & 1C, all at the same time? -- Break it down into three mini-boards, one at a time, like they should be.
  • Let's remember the benefit a BOR primarily serves the Scout. The more of them he gets, the better it is for his development. And, while he may not consciously see it that way (yet), nor be particularly looking forward to the process, he does understand the need for the process.
  • He doesn't want to feel "short-changed" in the process; and, especially... he doesn't want be seen by his peers as thinking he got "three for the price of one", while they had to do "three for three". [Now that would suck. Kids pay real close attention to that stuff.]
  • Even as a Scout, he's learned by the time he's ready for his TF BOR, that the requirements for each rank specify a separate BOR for each. If he gets one BOR for three ranks at one time, then what are we teaching him about the advancement requirements? That it's okay to change the rules when it's convenient?
  • So what if he gets three in a row. I see that as a 100% positive. If he's ready, they'll be short and sweet. But, seriously(?)... he'll almost certainly be be terrified for the first one. But, once you help him get settled in, by the time he comes back around (a few minutes later) for his 2C and then his 1C, he'll be much more relaxed and confident.
RWSmith
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:45 am
Location: Mecklenburg County Council

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:36 pm

I would hope that having 3 BORs for the same scout in one night would be an extremely rare occurence. 2 in one night is stretching it for me. The SM and Adv Chair should be monitoring the young scouts progress to keep this to a minimum.

Also the scout should be using the 2010 requirements for 2nd and/or 1st Class if he had 2-3 BORs in one night. Hopefully the troop is doing that.

Do 3 BORs mean 3 SMCs too? To meet T-#11, 2nd-#13, 1st-#12 the scout would have to come up with 12 examples of scout spirit.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby mhjacobson » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:23 am

Combining rank advancement can be slightly difficult if you are following the requirements as scout spirit is worded: While a XXX demonstrate. How can a scout demonstrate that they exemplified scout spirit while a tenderfoot (for example) in order to satisfy this requirement for second class, if he never was a tenderfoot?

Also holding back the BOR until a scout completes all of the requirements for first class may not give the troop some valuable information. Part of the BOR is to find out from the scout the strengths and weaknesses of the troop program, what he liked (and disliked doing) and other troop-related issues. Information that could strengthen the troop if available and weaken the troop if not known.
50 year+ scouter -- have held almost all adult leader positions in Cubs, Scouts, & Venturing, currently serving as Council Scouting for Youth with Disabilities Chair.
mhjacobson
Eagle
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:39 pm
Location: DesPlaines Valley Council - Illinois

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:06 pm

mhjacobson wrote:Combining rank advancement can be slightly difficult if you are following the requirements as scout spirit is worded: While a XXX demonstrate. How can a scout demonstrate that they exemplified scout spirit while a tenderfoot (for example) in order to satisfy this requirement for second class, if he never was a tenderfoot?

Also holding back the BOR until a scout completes all of the requirements for first class may not give the troop some valuable information. Part of the BOR is to find out from the scout the strengths and weaknesses of the troop program, what he liked (and disliked doing) and other troop-related issues. Information that could strengthen the troop if available and weaken the troop if not known.


Actually neither 2nd or 1st class Scout Spirit requirements say "While a XXX" that went our when tenure requirements did. The newly written requirement says to give examples but don't use the ones you did for Tenderfoot for 2nd or use the 2nd ones for 1st.


I agree with para 2 although there could be other methods to gain this info.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby Lynda J » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:36 am

I honestly thing that this is a really DUMB idea. Advancement of rank is not only a progression of skills but also a progression of maturity. It isn't just about getting to a rank as fast as possible but it is about maturing and growing as boys age. I also don't believe in 13 year old Eagles. It bothers me when I see leaders put boys on a fast track to Eagle without focusing on what should be the learning process on the journey Let our boys enjoy the growing into an Eagle don't focus on how fast they can get there. Remember Eagle is the top of the mountain. I have seen boys that Eagle at 14 or 15 that have left Scouting by 16.
your community is a tree. You are either a leaf that feeds it or mistletoe that suckes it dry. Be sure you are always a leaf.
Lynda J
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1151
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:58 am
Location: Longhorn Council, TX

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:14 pm

Lynda J wrote:I honestly thing that this is a really DUMB idea. Advancement of rank is not only a progression of skills but also a progression of maturity. It isn't just about getting to a rank as fast as possible but it is about maturing and growing as boys age. I also don't believe in 13 year old Eagles. It bothers me when I see leaders put boys on a fast track to Eagle without focusing on what should be the learning process on the journey Let our boys enjoy the growing into an Eagle don't focus on how fast they can get there. Remember Eagle is the top of the mountain. I have seen boys that Eagle at 14 or 15 that have left Scouting by 16.


WHOA NELLY! This is just an idea that comes from the current BSA rules that say you can work on all three junior ranks at the same time. It's hard to tell how much maturity progression there is when scouts are having their TF and 2nd or 2nd and 1st BORs on the same night. You used t have to become a TF before you could even start 2nd so the scout had an accomplishment under his belt instead of scouts coming back from Summer Camp with 4 TF, 5 2nd and 4 1st class requirements signed off. The time between ranks was not long either. 1 mo TF to 2; 2 mos 2nd to 1st.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby razor_strop » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:42 am

Lynda J wrote:I also don't believe in 13 year old Eagles.


Fortunately for Scouts, what we believe individually really doesn't matter. BSA has clearly stated in ACPP (33088) that Scouts advance in rank at their own pace (pg. 3). If an enthusiastic young man earns his Eagle at 13 by completing all the requirements, then he is rightfully an Eagle, regardless of what some may think of as lost opportunities for growth, or a lack of age-based maturity. If a Scout has been "pushed" through the process by a misguided adult, but handbooks, blue cards and the like are signed by those qualified, then the actual victim is not BSA or the reputation of Eagles everywhere, but rather it is the Scout, who was not afforded the chance to learn, grow and experience many of the valuable lessons Scouting has to offer.
razor_strop
Life
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:24 am

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby lifescoutforlife » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:00 am

razor_strop wrote:
Lynda J wrote:I also don't believe in 13 year old Eagles.


Fortunately for Scouts, what we believe individually really doesn't matter. BSA has clearly stated in ACPP (33088) that Scouts advance in rank at their own pace (pg. 3). If an enthusiastic young man earns his Eagle at 13 by completing all the requirements, then he is rightfully an Eagle, regardless of what some may think of as lost opportunities for growth, or a lack of age-based maturity. If a Scout has been "pushed" through the process by a misguided adult, but handbooks, blue cards and the like are signed by those qualified, then the actual victim is not BSA or the reputation of Eagles everywhere, but rather it is the Scout, who was not afforded the chance to learn, grow and experience many of the valuable lessons Scouting has to offer.

This is why national has made requirements for Eagle and every other rank. If a young mans fire in burning in scouting it is up to all of us to help put fuel on the fire and help him along the way reguardless our personal feelings.
If you don't take care of the Cub Scouts there will be no Boy Scouts!
Owl Patrol NE-IV-214
lifescoutforlife
Eagle
 
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:49 am
Location: Chief Cornplanter Council

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby kwildman » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:32 am

Lynda J wrote:I honestly thing that this is a really DUMB idea. Advancement of rank is not only a progression of skills but also a progression of maturity. It isn't just about getting to a rank as fast as possible but it is about maturing and growing as boys age. I also don't believe in 13 year old Eagles. It bothers me when I see leaders put boys on a fast track to Eagle without focusing on what should be the learning process on the journey Let our boys enjoy the growing into an Eagle don't focus on how fast they can get there. Remember Eagle is the top of the mountain. I have seen boys that Eagle at 14 or 15 that have left Scouting by 16.


I agree that combining badges is not a good idea. That is all i agree with.

1. Maturity is not an aim or method of scouting. No where in any advancement document does it state anything about maturity. There is absolutetly nothing "mature" about a boy waiting until he is 17 and hurrying to complete his eagle by his 18th birthday.

2. a boy that does the work deserves the credit. You either meet the requirements or you dont. I do not believe in interference by adults, be it parents or leaders. Boys work at their own pace and some are more motivated. I have had to fight this fight for my own son and other boys in our troop. Blanket statements about 13 year old eagles are very disrepectful. These kids are eagle scouts and they deserve better from our leaders.

3. Eagle is not the "top of the montain". It is a rank. Advancement is only one of eight the methods of scouting. Leaders that focus only on rank advancement are missing the big picture. Besides, Eagle Scouts can still earn palms. Eagle Scouts can still work on the Hornady awards. Eagle Scouts can still be active in OA and Crew. It is only the "top" if that is all you offer them.


If it sounds like i have my feathers ruffled it is becaue my son just made Eagle last night. Age 13 and he earned it. I warned him that not only is he going to be held to a higher standard by being an Eagle but he is also going to be more scrutinized because of his age. Its not fair, but he will have to prove himself over and over because of these kind of attitudes. Fortunately, he is a very easy going boy and it will just drive him to work even harder. His current plans are to attend NAYLE at Philmont next summer, work with the troop as an instructor or troop guide, join a Ship, staff NYLT training course, and get the Triple Crown by attending all three high adventure camps.
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
kwildman
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Simon Kenton Council

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby evmori » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:18 pm

If it sounds like i have my feathers ruffled it is becaue my son just made Eagle last night. Age 13 and he earned it. I warned him that not only is he going to be held to a higher standard by being an Eagle but he is also going to be more scrutinized because of his age. Its not fair, but he will have to prove himself over and over because of these kind of attitudes.


He will have to prove himself over and over again because he is an Eagle. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby Lynda J » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:48 pm

Please don't get me wrong, I would never never stop a boy from earning Eagle at 13, and as a leader I would help any boy earn his Eagle at 13 and I do not think a 13 year old Eagle is any less and Eagle that a 17 year old Eagle. I just don't thing that most 13 year olds are mature enough to understand the true depths of what Eagle means. For many boys at that age it is simply another rank. I also agree that there are exceptions to everything. I would just like to see boys savor the journey to Eagle and not fast track them.

I have worked with Scouting for over 40 years and I've watched as parents and leaders have begun to push kids to grow up faster and faster. I would just like to see our kids get to travel through their youth at a canter instead of at warp speed. If we race full speed down the middle of the river in the canoe so focused on how fast you get to the end we miss out on the beauty of the shore along the way.
your community is a tree. You are either a leaf that feeds it or mistletoe that suckes it dry. Be sure you are always a leaf.
Lynda J
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1151
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:58 am
Location: Longhorn Council, TX

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby ronin718 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:46 pm

kwildman... Congrats to your son on the Eagle!!!! I'm in the same boat with you, also having a son who earned Eagle at 13. He doesn't get the same respect as the older guys, and even gets passed over when senior leadership positions come up. Quite irritating, but we're slowly pushing the envelope.
1st ASM, 2010 NCAC Jambo Troop 521
WB NE-IV-216 Eagle, Beaded 17 June 2010
Unit Commissioner, Goose Creek District
ronin718
Eagle
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: National Capital Area Council - MD/DC/VA

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby nolesrule » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:51 pm

Lynda J wrote:I just don't thing that most 13 year olds are mature enough to understand the true depths of what Eagle means. For many boys at that age it is simply another rank.


Eagle is simply another rank. The fact that people have turned into something more is part of the problem, in that it has become the purpose of scouting, rather than one part of the scouting journey.
Unit Commissioner
Osceola District, WCFC
SR-1022 Bobwhite
nolesrule
Second Class
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:29 pm
Location: West Central Florida Council

Re: Combining Tenderfoot, 2nd and 1st Class into one rank

Postby lifescoutforlife » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:34 am

kwildman, congrats to you and your son.
If you don't take care of the Cub Scouts there will be no Boy Scouts!
Owl Patrol NE-IV-214
lifescoutforlife
Eagle
 
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:49 am
Location: Chief Cornplanter Council

Next

Return to Scout Badge, Tenderfoot through Life, and Eagle Palms

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests