"Mass" Teaching and Advancement

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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby ScoutingStokes » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:08 am

smtroop168 wrote:If your son has had his SM conference he can request a BOR from the Advancement Chair. The SM can provide any info he would like to the BOR. If the SM does not want to send him to a BOR and or committee does not give the scout, then the scout or his parent can appeal to the District/Council. There is a section on the site that speaks to Appealing a decision. Give it a read.
I will read that next!

I AM the Advancement Chair... I had a BOR scheduled with 3 other Committee members (not including myself) for tomorrow night. I knew my son was ready, and anticipated that some others would be, this being 2 weeks after camp. After last night's meeting, the SM said no others were ready, then refused my son's advancement after his SMC....now what? I know of another Board member who was at camp who disagrees with the whole Scout Spirit issue the SM is using, but can he sign off that requirement since the SM wouldn't? And can we then hold the BOR anyway? I have no problem with my son not advancing if he has not met his requirements, and I would NEVER try to claim he did something he didn't, but this was WRONG! I was thinking that we would just go to another Troop and let someone else judge my son's Scout Spirit...is it really worth the fight with this Troop?

Ursus Snorous Roarus wrote:-YP is serious, missing dinner is not cool, profanity to a kid is totally unacceptable. We all know this much!

But the damage has been done and unless the committee backs you, you need to find a new troop. We work to daggone hard at this for it not to be fun!


Yeah, the Committee, not so much....I just don't even have the energy to go there. I, WE, DO work too darned hard for this to be such a pain in the you-know-what! 9 years I have been a Scout leader....this is ridiculous. Too bad most of you guys with good running Troops all seem to be up North! lol I'd join in a second!!!
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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby Quailman » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:13 am

If you don't mind a 4 1/2 hour drive to meetings on monday evenings, I've got a great advancement mill for you.
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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby mhjacobson » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:40 am

The appeal should be made to the Council Advancement Chair, not the Unit Advancement Chair. By the way, the requirement states: "Demonstrate the Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and SCout Law in your everyday life." The SM should be discussing that requirement and not what is occurring in the Unit.

Also, believe it or not, there is no failing of a SM conference. The requirement is: "Take part in a Scoutmaster conference."

So, the SM is wrong on dinging a scout for scout spirit if it was based primarily on what happened in camp (especially in the light of his not demonstrating scout spirit at camp).
50 year+ scouter -- have held almost all adult leader positions in Cubs, Scouts, & Venturing, currently serving as Council Scouting for Youth with Disabilities Chair.
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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby joat » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:43 am

Scout Spirit is defined as living the Scout Law and and Scout Law in one's daily life. A fair question to the SM is exactly how the Scout has not been living the Oath and Law, not just at summer camp, but in his DAILY life since his last rank advancement. You might also take a look at the Scout Handbook pages 108, 164, and 170 which talk about Scout Spirit. It also tells who is best able to judge Scout Spirit, and guess what, it's not the SM.
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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby ScoutingStokes » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:47 am

Quailman wrote:If you don't mind a 4 1/2 hour drive to meetings on monday evenings, I've got a great advancement mill for you.

Hmmmm, I don't think Spring is 4 1/2 hours....... :lol: And heck, I drive over an hour to work three times a week.... it's only an hour a week, right, plus the drive??? :wink:
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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby ThunderingWind » Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:51 pm

wagionvigil wrote:IMHO Most of the leaders donot have the skills to teach the scouts.


You hit it on the head.

National needs to start a legitmate Associates of Arts (or Science) in Scouting degree program and offer it several accredited colleges and universities. A Bachelor's degree would also be great.

Classess in orienteering, pioneering, firecraft, NRA firearms training, NRA RSO training, Archery, Shootgun, climbing - all the National Camp stuff. Additional courses to support non-outdoor Venture Crews should be included.

Offer scholarships to Eagle Scouts (and Venture members that have completed the Silver - for the sake of making a point here). Have willing leaders apply to take these courses. I know I would go in a heart beat.
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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby mt_goodrich » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:41 am

I know that Brigham Young University (BYU) offers a B.S in Recreation Management and Youth Leadership and they have several classes related to Scouting, including one on Venturing. Also courses on teaching various outdoor skills: Hiking, orienteering, water safety, etc.
Mike
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* Eagle Scout - 1982
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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby ThunderingWind » Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:37 am

I have yet to find a college that teaches Pioneering skills. I can read a book and make rope, but where is all the engineering behind the Monkey bridge? The boys miss out on so much because no one knows this stuff and it is not required to be known and taught.

For Example:

When lashing together two long poles and shorter cross pieces to make a A-shaped ladder - how many time are you to circle/wrap your twine/rope around the point the pole meet at the top before you wrap around the rope itself then tie off?

When it is better to lash and tie with wet twine?

How many tiwsts and braids are needed to make a rope the will be used for make a ladder?
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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby WeeWillie » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:48 am

Witholding food as punishment is a YP issue. So is revenge. Take it directly to Council as a YP complaint.

Northern Arizona University has a Recreation degree that includes outdoor skills emphasis. My son is going to NAU in two weeks for Geographic Information Science. Both degrees are offered by the same department. When we visited in June I was impressed with both programs. Their emploiyment bulletin board had Summer intern programs galore. He is the URL

http://www4.nau.edu/academiccatalog/200 ... MgmtEM.htm
Mike Wilson
MBC, Cochise District, Catalina Council, Sierra Vista, AZ
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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:53 am

Garret County Community College In McHenry MD Offers an Outdoor Recreation Degree of some sort.
Include Rafting,Campin./backpacking,Ski Operations,CLimbing etc. They link with Frostburg Universtity for the 4 Year Bachelors.
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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby OldGreyBear » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:38 am

Before you say nobody know this stuff, you ought to be sure you know your audience
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Fathers, do not irritate and provoke your children to anger [do not exasperate them to resentment], but rear them [tenderly] in the training and discipline and the counsel and admonition of the Lord.
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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby kwildman » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:33 am

This thread is getting a little OT but I would recommend National Outdoor Leadership School - NOLS www.nols.edu Hands down the best program for someone wanting a recreational degree. There are also many very good wilderness survival schools available that have weekend programs for youth and scouters.

I dont think that BSA needs to offer or should require this type of intensive training though. It is the leaders responsibility to provide "qualified supervision" for scouting activities. This does not mean that they are expected to be the "qualified supervisor" for all activities just as a leader is not expected to be a merit badge counselor for every merit badge. I would strongly recommend that scouters take the Powderhorn Course as this program exposes you to many different activities and provides you resources to locating and securing advisers to serve as qualified supervisors when needed. Most BSA training courses are like going to school....Powderhorn is like RECESS for big kids. :)
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
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Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby ismellbacon » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:06 pm

Is mass teaching and advancement good?

My definitive answer: maybe

First, your troop, its meetings, and everything in between should be scout led. The more experienced scouts should be teaching the younger scouts... part of learning is teaching, and vice versa.

Sometimes, in our troop, it seems all the younger patrols do at a camp out is cook and clean up.... takes them forever to cook their meal, and then twice as long to clean up... and by the time they are through, it is time for the next meal.

It can be frustrating to watch as an adult, but we let the more experienced help out the younger ones. The adults give minimal involvement unless it is a health or safety issue. The adults sign off the books, or JASM, once the scout shows he is knowledgable of the rank requirements.

The scouts plan, and implement 98% of all content.

Now... if the Patrol Leaders Council, or a group of scouts, elect to learn a specific merit badge or some such event... then they will ask one of the Adult Leaders or Counselors to teach the material to how ever many scouts want to learn it. This is the few times that "mass" teaching comes into effect (larger than the patrol)... for example, I taught the Traffic Safety merit badge one weekend to 90% of the troop. Each scout had a worksheet and we went through the entire list and had quizzes along the way.

But, the Troop Guide, or other more experienced scouts should be teaching the basics (Scout to 1st Class) materials.


The patrol method is not a way, but the only way in scouting. - B.P.
Yours in scouting,

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