"Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Scout Badge, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle Palms.

Moderators: Site Admin, Moderators

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby joat » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:22 pm

As long as we're quoting the Advancement book, here's one: "It is necessary that the Scoutmaster understand the purpose of the advancement program... The troop's program must provide advancement opportunities. By participating in the troop program, the Scout will meet requirements for rank advancement."

This is where earn First Class in about a year comes from. Provide the opportunities and an enthusiastic Scout can earn the rank in a year. Providing an engaging outdoor program allows boys to advance. Making a program available does not make it a"rush". If it is not possible for a boy to make it, that's a clear indicator that the troop program is lacking.

Somebody mentioned retention. A strong and fun program is what keeps boys interested and retained. First Class in a year is simply a by-product.

Jack-of-all-Trades
joat
Life
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: WLACC

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby milominderbinder2 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:31 am

Yes!

That is exactly it! We are to provide the opportunity to do things and to be outside having fun. First Class-First Year is not about advancement. First Class-First Year is about opportunity and fun.

BP is quoted as having said that advancement should be like getting a tan. You are always outside doing things and look down and realize you have gotten a tan.

- Craig
milominderbinder2
Eagle
 
Posts: 352
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:04 am
Location: Rainbow Council

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby ScoutingStokes » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:12 pm

Well, thanks to all of your encouraging remarks, I took the bull by the horns and brought the problem out in the open, as well as to the attention of our Charter Rep. I've just come home from a 3 HOUR meeting :? discussing the issues we have with our Program and our Committee (which needs a separate thread entirely!) I have mixed feelings on how much was actually accomplished, but we shall see.

I removed my younger son from the Ranger portion of the program at Camp this summer, and encouraged others to do the same. Our new guys need teaching and mostly a chance to be outside to practice, practice, practice! Not be spoon fed the entire set of requirements for all the ranks through First Class in a week. With a SOLID Program, (which we are trying to implement now!) we should accomplish this at the Troop level, so our guys have those basic building blocks I've heard several of you mention. Let the guys work on MB stuff and enjoy the Outing in Scouting at Camp!

Again, thanks for everyone's support and insight! I'll keep you posted on how we progress. And I'll be checking out the new First Class-First Year thread mentioned.
Scouting Stokes
"Follow me, Boys!" ~ Lem Siddons

www.bsatroop239.net
ScoutingStokes
First Class
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:33 pm
Location: Alamo Area Council, San Antonio, TX

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby milominderbinder2 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:46 pm

It's been two weeks, what's happened?

- Craig
milominderbinder2
Eagle
 
Posts: 352
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:04 am
Location: Rainbow Council

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby mhjacobson » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:45 pm

The from Scout to First Class in One Year came from National when a survey of those who dropped out of scouting stated that lack of recognition (advancement) and lack of a program were the primary reasons why they left scouting. The team who studies these results looked at the program and found that in a troop that had an outdoor program at least once a money and which followed the guidelines for a scout meeting most scout should be able to be introduced to the skills that lead to the first class rank. So thus the program!
50 year+ scouter -- have held almost all adult leader positions in Cubs, Scouts, & Venturing, currently serving as Council Scouting for Youth with Disabilities Chair.
mhjacobson
Eagle
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:39 pm
Location: DesPlaines Valley Council - Illinois

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby ScoutingStokes » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:36 am

milominderbinder2 wrote:It's been two weeks, what's happened?

- Craig

Not a thing. The Scoutmaster came to the Committee Meeting a week and a half later, loaded for bear. He brought in, and quoted from, 5 or 6 BSA pubs concerning programming and the charter organization, laying claim to MOST of the jobs/decisions of the CO and committee, siting his position on multiple boards of the CO.

Very little was discussed about program, and absolutely nothing was finalized. The committee meeting was on July 1 - our guys leave for camp July 13. There still had not been a Tour Permit filed, because get this - he was still waiting to find out if some of the boys were going, and only about half that are going have paid! There was no idea who was driving and transporting the boys, either.

When I questioned all this, I was accused of "trying to run the Troop" and told that I need to "drop the drama".
Scouting Stokes
"Follow me, Boys!" ~ Lem Siddons

www.bsatroop239.net
ScoutingStokes
First Class
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:33 pm
Location: Alamo Area Council, San Antonio, TX

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby mhjacobson » Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:12 pm

I wonder where he got his books. The CO basically appoints the Chartered Organization Representative, who is responsible for approval of all adult leaders of the unit and signs-off on the charter renewal. The CO is also responsible for the appointment of the committee chair (although in most units the position becomes an elected one despite the national BSA policy). The committee is responsible for the running of the administration of the troop, other than program which is the primary area of responsibility of the SM. The SM is supposed to hold only ONE POSITION in the unit and that is as SM.

If you want a revolution -- get hold of the proper manuals: SM and Troop Committee. Next time that he desires to misquote one of them, you should be able to rebut it with the proper quote with the correct information.
50 year+ scouter -- have held almost all adult leader positions in Cubs, Scouts, & Venturing, currently serving as Council Scouting for Youth with Disabilities Chair.
mhjacobson
Eagle
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:39 pm
Location: DesPlaines Valley Council - Illinois

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby ScoutingStokes » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:17 pm

No, unfortunately, he had the SM manual and TC guidebook. And he did admit that jobs such as choosing CC, etc. were the Charter's job (not COR). That's how he claimed he was within all rights to choose the chair, appoint committee members, etc. because he had (as a member of the board of the charter church) told the COR to do it. He's walking a fine fine technicality line, because he's not "holding" a position in the troop other than SM, he's "holding" 3 different board positions with the church and throwing his weight there.

I tried the revolution. Many parents were complaining in the parking lot, so I had a backbone and stood up to the SM. After he pulled his "quote" session, and because he got our treasurer to show up and give a report for the first time in 6 months, several of the parents turned on me and that's when I was accused of trying to run the troop. Honestly, I don't want to run it - my entire contention is that it IS being run by one person and SHOULDN'T BE! It's a losing battle with this troop - I'm in the process of looking for another troop....
Scouting Stokes
"Follow me, Boys!" ~ Lem Siddons

www.bsatroop239.net
ScoutingStokes
First Class
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:33 pm
Location: Alamo Area Council, San Antonio, TX

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:26 pm

IMHO....It's unfortunate, but I think you're doing the right thing by looking for another troop. You could take on these folks but I've come to the conclusion after hearing about situations like this that it's rarely if ever worth the time, energy, and emotions. I was successful in ridding our troop of an unethical COR and his henchmen, but it took a lot of my effort away from the boys. I did it because my son wanted to stay with his buddies that he had gone from Tiger to Boy Scouts. If you want to try, the risk is you’ll only antagonize these individuals, which could backlash on your son. Scouting is for him so get him in the best position you can for him to succeed and see if you can bring of his buddies along with him.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby mhjacobson » Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:40 pm

CO is the abbreviation of chartered organization. The SM, no matter what position that he holds in the CO does not have the authority to do anything. That rests in the hands of the executive officer of the church, who is the minister (priest, etc). It is the executive officer, or whomever he appoints to do the work for him, who appoints the COR, the CC, and is the person to whom the troop people report. The COR IS the person who approves the leadership (the people, not the positions) as he signed for the CO on the leadership applications and the troop charter.

Given all that, we just went through all of what you went through for five years with a SM who 'did it all and said that he could do it all,' until there was finally a revolutation. He first told me that I was trying th hyjack the troop, so I continued to do what I was doing (supporting the boys). Finally, the adults started giving him flack about things not being done properly. So he resigned as SM and took over as CC. The troop adults are now in the process of starting the Civil War so they can have him removed as CC. All that he does is to make the simple complicated, dump the complicated two days before the event into someone else's lap, and screw up everything else.

I almost took myself, my son, and a bunch of motivated scouts to another troop, but realizing that that would have destroyed the current troop, decided to stick it out and let things happen. I'll bet that if you give it some time, the other adults will start to see what is really happening. In the mean time -- continue to quote the books every chance you get --they are your only weapons.
50 year+ scouter -- have held almost all adult leader positions in Cubs, Scouts, & Venturing, currently serving as Council Scouting for Youth with Disabilities Chair.
mhjacobson
Eagle
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:39 pm
Location: DesPlaines Valley Council - Illinois

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby ScoutingStokes » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:53 am

smtroop168 wrote:... the risk is you’ll only antagonize these individuals, which could backlash on your son.


You were right - happened last night. :oops: My son had his SM conference. Was signed off on everything else for First Class, but the SM refused to sign off on the rank due to his "Scout Spirit". My boy is a 13 yr old SPL who has never received any training to be in his position. He just spent a week at camp with the SM yelling at him because he could not control the boys. I know this for a fact, I was there for four days with them. By Fri my son was so upset that he didn't even want to stay until camp was over the next morning. That is what the SM sited as his "lack of Scout Spirit". Oh, and that he fights with his younger brother. Because that's so terribly unusual with siblings. :roll: When I called unfair, I was told "Well you wanted him to follow the rules, now he is!"

This same SM stood screaming at one boy one evening at camp - telling him that he was "p***ing him off". He sent him to his tent and told him he couldn't go to dinner - then left me alone with him while he took off with the rest of the Troop to the mess hall. Talk about your Scout Spirit. I hated that I was left alone, but what else could I do except talk to the boy, help him find his neckerchief (the cause of the trouble) and walk him to dinner?

I am submitting my resignation tomorrow. (I would do it today, but I'm out of town.) I will pull my boys out of Scouting until we can find another Troop that operates within the boundaries of national, not to mention reality. I am flabbergasted...and totally disgusted.
Scouting Stokes
"Follow me, Boys!" ~ Lem Siddons

www.bsatroop239.net
ScoutingStokes
First Class
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:33 pm
Location: Alamo Area Council, San Antonio, TX

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby Fibonacci » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:02 am

ScoutingStokes ~ it sounds like you have gone above and beyond in your efforts to get your sons' troop to function properly. Please consider sharing some of this information with your District Executive or other council staff person so that the troop can get the help it needs.

Good luck finding a new troop!
Fibonacci
Life
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:12 pm
Location: Chief Seattle

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby Billiken » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:11 am

ScoutingStokes wrote: This same SM stood screaming at one boy one evening at camp - telling him that he was "p***ing him off". He sent him to his tent and told him he couldn't go to dinner - then left me alone with him while he took off with the rest of the Troop to the mess hall. Talk about your Scout Spirit. I hated that I was left alone, but what else could I do except talk to the boy, help him find his neckerchief (the cause of the trouble) and walk him to dinner?


This SM used profanity with Scouts.
He violated Youth Protection in leaving you alone with the Scout.

He was going to withhold food from a Scout?
I bet the boy's parents will love to hear about that.

HE needs to be removed.
Please write a letter to you Chartered Org Rep, Committee Chairman, and copy your DE.

I bet the District/Council won't do anything...the last thing they want is to lose a volunteer.

I've never yelled in anger at a single Scout (other than my son....AT home).
"The only problem with Boy Scouts is, there aren't enough of them." Will Rogers
Billiken
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 937
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:27 pm
Location: Greater Cleveland Council

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:23 am

I usually like it when I'm right but in this case it's sad.

It depends on you as to what you want to do with the Summer Camp incident as far as reporting it up through the troop committee and council levels. How old was this scout? What was his demeanor? Did he tell him he would not get to eat until he found his neckerchief?

Hopefully you will find another troop for your son. He's a junior SPL if he's still a 2nd class and he will learn from his experience.

Also we have been round and round on YPT at summer camp and I don't see a violation. I can count lots of times where one of my leaders has brought a straggler along to meals or making a trip to the health lodge etc.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby evmori » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:53 am

ScoutingStokes wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:... the risk is you’ll only antagonize these individuals, which could backlash on your son.


You were right - happened last night. :oops: My son had his SM conference. Was signed off on everything else for First Class, but the SM refused to sign off on the rank due to his "Scout Spirit". My boy is a 13 yr old SPL who has never received any training to be in his position. He just spent a week at camp with the SM yelling at him because he could not control the boys. I know this for a fact, I was there for four days with them. By Fri my son was so upset that he didn't even want to stay until camp was over the next morning. That is what the SM sited as his "lack of Scout Spirit". Oh, and that he fights with his younger brother. Because that's so terribly unusual with siblings. :roll: When I called unfair, I was told "Well you wanted him to follow the rules, now he is!"

This same SM stood screaming at one boy one evening at camp - telling him that he was "p***ing him off". He sent him to his tent and told him he couldn't go to dinner - then left me alone with him while he took off with the rest of the Troop to the mess hall. Talk about your Scout Spirit. I hated that I was left alone, but what else could I do except talk to the boy, help him find his neckerchief (the cause of the trouble) and walk him to dinner?

I am submitting my resignation tomorrow. (I would do it today, but I'm out of town.) I will pull my boys out of Scouting until we can find another Troop that operates within the boundaries of national, not to mention reality. I am flabbergasted...and totally disgusted.


Sounds like it's time for the Scoutmaster to step down.

Report all of this to your DE & find another unit.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby ScoutingStokes » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:28 pm

Thanks, folks, I was beginning to feel like the bad guy in this. Heaven knows I've been told I am..."raising you-know-what" ... "complaining all the time"... "trying to take over"....etc. I can't tell you how much the support from this forum means to me!

Billiken wrote:Hopefully you will find another troop for your son. He's a junior SPL if he's still a 2nd class and he will learn from his experience.
Nope, my son is THE SPL. There is a boy who is his ASPL, then PLs and APLs for the two patrols. There is not a boy older or higher in rank than mine in the Troop. Which is why it is frustrating that anyone even EXPECTED a 13 yr old boy to be able to control a Troop, and is now having it held against him that he couldn't!

I plan to talk to our DE, but in the meantime is there anything I can do to help my son get the rank he deserved?
Scouting Stokes
"Follow me, Boys!" ~ Lem Siddons

www.bsatroop239.net
ScoutingStokes
First Class
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:33 pm
Location: Alamo Area Council, San Antonio, TX

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby ScoutingStokes » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:40 pm

smtroop168 wrote:It depends on you as to what you want to do with the Summer Camp incident as far as reporting it up through the troop committee and council levels. How old was this scout? What was his demeanor? Did he tell him he would not get to eat until he found his neckerchief?

Sorry, SMTroop168, meant to answer your other question, too... So frustrated today I can't think straight! :evil:
The boy is 11. His demeanor was a major problem for most of camp. The SM has no children of his own so (I think) has limited experience dealing with discipline. He most certainly used profanity. He yelled at the boy for not having his neckerchief, told him it was our 3rd night in camp he knew by now that FULL uniforms were required for dinner, and told him to go to his tent and stay there - no dinner. I was shocked. :shock: I was just worried about being left alone with him, in a bad mood after being told no dinner, and having already caused several disturbances. I could just see him claiming something and my bottom ending up in hot water! I gave him a choice - I gave him 5 min. to find his neckerchief and we walk down to dinner, or if he refused we simply walk down and talk to the Camp Director and call his grandmother to come pick him up. He found his neckerchief in 4.
Scouting Stokes
"Follow me, Boys!" ~ Lem Siddons

www.bsatroop239.net
ScoutingStokes
First Class
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:33 pm
Location: Alamo Area Council, San Antonio, TX

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby WVBeaver05 » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:48 pm

ScoutingStokes wrote:I am submitting my resignation tomorrow. (I would do it today, but I'm out of town.) I will pull my boys out of Scouting until we can find another Troop that operates within the boundaries of national, not to mention reality. I am flabbergasted...and totally disgusted.

As an alternative approach, I would suggest that you consider reporting the incident to the CO, District, and Council. Do this before you resign. I have heard cases of people's input being ignored since they had already resigned. If nothing positive is done, you can still resign later and move your boys to A TROOP. Even if nothing happens right away, you may trigger the CO to monitor more closely in the future.

This would be helpful to the remaining Scouts who deserve a REAL Scouting experience. Not saying that they are your responsibility, but if you can help them I think you should at least give it (another) shot.

Good luck to you and keep us informed.

YiS
Wayne

Scoutmaster Troop34
Roundtable Commissioner
Eagle Scout - 1973
Wood Badge Beaver - 2005
WVBeaver05
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:17 am
Location: Buckskin Council - WV

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:19 pm

If the SM was denying the scout dinner, then there is a clear violation and this needs to be reported as soon as possible.

The scout was 11, was he homesick and acting up?

I would still continue your search for a new troop. My experience says that this is not going to get any better.

If your son has had his SM conference he can request a BOR from the Advancement Chair. The SM can provide any info he would like to the BOR. If the SM does not want to send him to a BOR and or committee does not give the scout, then the scout or his parent can appeal to the District/Council. There is a section on the site that speaks to Appealing a decision. Give it a read.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: "Mass" Teaching and Advancement

Postby Ursus Snorous Roarus » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:24 pm

How sad this situation is.
Much of this is after the fact now, but even before the dinner incident, there was all kinds of problems with this picture. Many have been pointed out already, but I'll add a few to the list -
For starters, sure I could come up with more with time: (In My Humble Opinion, sure this will spark some debate!)
-Boy Lead means adults don't cook for boys (when patrol cooking).
-Boy Lead means adults don't sign off advancement requirements (yes, that's right, no adults sign off anything other than Scout Spirit, Conference, activity (adv chair) and service hours - unless some very very rare and very very unique situation occurs).
-Teaching First Aid skills for First Class is fine, but at that point find something more appropriate for the younger Scouts to work on - do break out sessions for your unit. Your PLC should work these kinds of things into your program night. I don't have a problem with an expert here and there, but agree, most of these things should be taught by older Scouts. But something different is cool at times. Gives you an excuse to review 1st Aid again when those younger guys are ready.
-Group Advancement - nothing wrong with group teaching, but not group passing.
-Working on all 3 ranks is ok but needs controlled. They are climbing a ladder in most of these requirements, so it's pretty tough to jump to the third rung from the ground, ie Tenderfoot Scout studying 1st Class 1st Aid isn't best use of meeting time...
-YP is serious, missing dinner is not cool, profanity to a kid is totally unacceptable. We all know this much!

Anyhow, agree with most of the support you've been given, inform all you can about what happened. But the damage has been done and unless the committee backs you, you need to find a new troop. It's unfortunate it gets to that point, but a clean start is sometimes best for the boys and for you. I wouldn't appeal the SM decision, cut it loose and go. A few months at a new unit will do your son wonders, you'll be amazed how he'll rebound. Then he'll fly through his next SM conference and BOR.
We work to daggone hard at this for it not to be fun!
Last edited by Ursus Snorous Roarus on Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ursus Snorous Roarus
Star
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:23 pm
Location: Montana Council

PreviousNext

Return to Scout Badge, Tenderfoot through Life, and Eagle Palms

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests