2nd and 1st Activity Reqmts vs Hiking MB Reqmts

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2nd and 1st Activity Reqmts vs Hiking MB Reqmts

Postby smtroop168 » Thu May 15, 2008 2:25 pm

Here's another strange one. The way this reads a scout cannot count a 10 miler as a rank requirement unless he's finished reqmts 1-4 for Hiking MB (and has a Blue Card). Adding to the rank reqmts? Don't see this listed under the rank reqmts or cross referenced.

FROM HIKING MB RQMTS:
The hikes in requirements 5 and 6 can be used in fulfilling Second Class Rank (2a) and First Class Rank (3) rank requirements, but only if Hiking merit badge requirements 1, 2, 3, and 4 have been completed to the satisfaction of your counselor.
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Postby wagionvigil » Thu May 15, 2008 2:27 pm

My read of this would be.
IfI take a hike for second class or first Class and I want it to count for Hiking then I have todo what you said. :)
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Postby smtroop168 » Thu May 15, 2008 2:31 pm

The statement "BUT ONLY IF" is where the hang up is.
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Dual credit

Postby ThunderingWind » Thu May 15, 2008 2:35 pm

My take on this would be if the Scout wishes to have the hike count in both the rank and MB.

Otherwise, if the Scout does not have the Items 1-4 completed for the MB, the hike only counts for the MB.
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Postby Quailman » Thu May 15, 2008 4:00 pm

But aren't those the 5 and 10 troop activities? So if the troop goes on a hike, he can count it as an activity, but if he wants to also count it as a MB hike, he needs to have 1-4 completed.

But if he doesn't need it for the rank advancement, he can count it towards the MB, even if he has not completed 1-4 yet. It sounds like a disconnect.
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Postby FrankJ » Thu May 15, 2008 5:01 pm

It make no sense at all to me. The rank requirement sited is the activity one. I would not count the hikes (5 & 6 of the merit badge) as troop or partol activities unless it was done as a troop or patrol activity at that point I would not care if 1-4 were done or not.

It looks to me to be something that maybe made sense before the hiking merit badge was revised & the requirements where renumbered. But that is just a WAG on my part.
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Postby pipestone1991 » Thu May 15, 2008 5:20 pm

That's ridiculus...*sigh*...makes no sense...
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Postby mhjacobson » Thu May 15, 2008 11:57 pm

The hike for second class is a 5 mile MAP AND COMPASS HIKE (or 10 mile bike), and the one for first class is a one mile orienteering course. Slightly different. BUT the wording for hiking talks about using the 10 miles that are used for hiking for the rank requirements. How about doing a 10 mile make and compass hike for the rank requirement and then keeping it in your log and then later using it for hiking?

I know that it is splitting hairs, but that is the way that it is written. As a hiking MB counselor, I certainlu would allow a 10 mile map and compass hike to be used for the MB AFTER it is used for second class.

Why is the requirement written the way that it is? That is simple -- many of the first aid requirements for hiking are written at the first class level and it is not expected that the tenderfoot scout who is working on hiking has these skills that are thought to be important for the hiker to know.

Believe it of not BSA usually knows why they are doing things.
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Postby FrankJ » Fri May 16, 2008 7:13 am

Actually this is a bad example of the BSA knowing what they are doing :D

You can do the entire hiking merit badge without knowing what a map & compass are. So the hike may or not cover the hike requirements for rank

Rank requirements for 2a & 3 sited in the merit badge are for participating in troop or patrol activities. Hiking merit badge would not be automatically be in this class.

If a scout doing a merit badge, covers a rank requirement, I am more than happy to sign them off.

I do believe that BSA generally knows what it is doing, but I would not use this as an example.
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Postby smtroop168 » Fri May 16, 2008 8:26 am

Interesting postings. Don't get confused on what requirements we're talking about. It's not the 5 miler map and compasss or the orienteering 1 mile, it the activity requirement that is listed. You don't have to do any hikes to fulfill the "activity" requirements for 2nd and 1st Class. Could be all campouts. The rub is that if you want to use a 10 miler as one of the activities, the way it reads is that you must complete 1-4 of Hiking MB.

We've had discussions in other areas about doing the MB requirements in order but you can do all your hikes and then do the 1st Aid requirement (not likely...but allowed).

I brought this to everyone because we're doing a 10 miler tomorrow and I was just reviewing the requirements since the boys usually ask "does this count for getting something signed off".

Use a 9 miler for the activity requirement and this doesn't come up. But the wording "but only if" seems off.

Anyone have the old Hiking MB requirements that FrankJ mentioned.
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Postby ASM-142 » Fri May 16, 2008 12:20 pm

Based on the actual requirements the 10 mile hike can count towards 2nd or 1st class even if Hiking 1-4 are not completed as along as the same hike is not used for the Hiking MB.
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Postby FrankJ » Fri May 16, 2008 12:23 pm

I went and looked at the old requirements for the hiking merit badge & ranks on WWW.USSCOUTS.COM and it still does not make sense. I am now guessing the requirements for the hiking merit badge was written by committee.

If a scout joins my troop & the next day does a 10 mile patrol hike. I am going to count that as a patrol activity & tell him he should work on the hiking merit badge. If different scout does the hiking merit badge with his buddy, very commendable, but not a patrol activity. (I would be inclined to by all of them pizza though)
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Postby milominderbinder2 » Fri May 16, 2008 12:45 pm

The statement as written is correct:

The hikes in requirements 5 and 6 can be used in fulfilling Second Class Rank (2a) and First Class Rank (3) rank requirements, but only if Hiking merit badge requirements 1, 2, 3, and 4 have been completed to the satisfaction of your counselor.

That is, one hike can earn credit towards Hiking Merit Badge and Second or First Class but only if this stipulation is met.

Otherwise the hikes done for Second and First Class do not count towards Hiking Merit Badge even if they were of the minimum distance.

If you call, they will tell you that is exactly what they intended. Been there. Done that. Didn't get a shirt.

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Postby FrankJ » Fri May 16, 2008 1:38 pm

If one of my scouts does a hike as a patrol activity, I am going to count it as a patrol activity without reference to a merit badge book. If he want to later use it towards the hiking merit badge, that is between him and the counselor.

Been there, done that. I buy my own shirts
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Postby evmori » Fri May 16, 2008 2:15 pm

milominderbinder2 wrote:The statement as written is correct:

The hikes in requirements 5 and 6 can be used in fulfilling Second Class Rank (2a) and First Class Rank (3) rank requirements, but only if Hiking merit badge requirements 1, 2, 3, and 4 have been completed to the satisfaction of your counselor.

That is, one hike can earn credit towards Hiking Merit Badge and Second or First Class but only if this stipulation is met.

Otherwise the hikes done for Second and First Class do not count towards Hiking Merit Badge even if they were of the minimum distance.

If you call, they will tell you that is exactly what they intended. Been there. Done that. Didn't get a shirt.

- Craig


What does a MB stipulation have to do with a rank requirement?
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Postby smtroop168 » Fri May 16, 2008 4:39 pm

Craig...I read it and that's why I posted it for comment:

I dunno it just seems strange that you need MB requirement(s) completed to get a piece of a rank requirement signed off. This is the only instance I can find like this. I looked at the 2000 requirements for Hiking and this paragraph is not there. Wonder why it was added?

I know there are a number of MBs that require rank requirements to be completed to get the MB signed off.
Like all the Aquatics MBs require the BSA Swim test (1st class 9b) Swimming and Lifesaving require 2nd and 1st swim reqmts
First Aid #1 (Ranks reqmts for T/2/1)

Also some MBs begat others such as :
Whitewater (#3 Canoeing MB or Kayaking BSA)
EPrep 1st Aid MB
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Postby milominderbinder2 » Sun May 18, 2008 3:45 pm

evmori wrote:...
What does a MB stipulation have to do with a rank requirement?
They have nothing to do with each other. That is what the Hiking Requirement is trying to say.

If you want the hikes for Second or First Class to also count toward Hiking Merit Badge, then you have to meet this additional stipulation.

If you do not want the hikes for Second or First Class to also count toward Hiking Merit Badge, then you have nothing else to do except your normal requirements.

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Postby milominderbinder2 » Sun May 18, 2008 4:52 pm

smtroop168 wrote:...I dunno it just seems strange that you need MB requirement(s) completed to get a piece of a rank requirement signed off.

Hiking Merit Badge does not add a requirement to Second or First class. A Merit Badge cannot add a requirement to a rank.

If you want double credit for the hike for Second or First Class for Hiking as well, you have so meet the terms of the stipulation in Hiking merit badge.

Otherwise just do the separate hikes.

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Postby smtroop168 » Sun May 18, 2008 9:29 pm

Sorry if I seem clueless on my reading of this but I guess I'm reading it that if you want the hikes to count for 2nd or 1st you must do the Hiking MB reqmts first.

It says the hikes can be used for rank requirements but only if Hiking MB 1-4 are done.

So to get part (1 of 5 or 1 of 10 activities) of a rank requirement signed you must get MB requirements done 1st.

Even if you want the 10 miler to count for both the MB and rank you have to do 1-4 first which isn't technically right either as the scout could do all the hikes and then do 1-4 if the counselor agrees.

The words "count also" for Hiking MB aren't in the requirements wording.
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Re: 2nd and 1st Activity Reqmts vs Hiking MB Reqmts

Postby mhjacobson » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:49 pm

Actaully the statement has little to do with either the rank requirement or what ever. It is about knowing the first aid for something that can arise from doing a 10 mile hike. I would not take any of my scouts on a 10 mile hike without knowing these requirements, and I think that any leader will do the same. That is the reason why, if a scout takes a 10 mile hike for a rank requirement without know the proper first aid an safety procedures, it cannot count for hiking.
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