Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Scout Badge, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle Palms.

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Postby wagionvigil » Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:08 am

Out of 13 Eagles I have had. Only 2 Got it before their 16th Birthday Most in the last 2 months ( or week) before their 18th Birthday.I got my Eagle at 15 and that was in 1964. Was I Pushed? NO! Motivated ? Yes.
Last edited by wagionvigil on Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby commish3 » Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:34 am

Were you aware that Ozzie Nelson and Sam Walton were both Eagle Scouts at age 13? Who knows how today's Eagle Scouts (of any age) will represent themselves, and the program,as they grow as adults?

Optimist is right on, there are no age requirements and there are no maturity requirements. Should we begrudge any scout his recognition once he has met the requirements of the BSA? Let's keep in mind these advancement recognitions do not belong to us. The Eagle Rank is presented by the National Council of the BSA after they have determined that the requirements have been met.

Over the years I have served on over 60 Eagle boards of review and in Eagle Scout ceremonies, and only one of those scouts was under 15 years of age. Less than 5% of Scouts earn Eagle and very few of those are under 14. If boys are advanceing without the knowledge they are required to have, or without doing the work themselves, then that is a problem with adults (often not the parents) and not the Scout.

Do parents encourage boys to achieve Eagle? Gosh, I hope so! Just remember that every person is different and some parents encourage inappropriately, but so do some scoutmasters.
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Postby RWSmith » Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:16 am

Tell it, Bro. Commish! Tell it!

That's the best post I've seen in a month.

Woo hoo!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Postby Guneukitschik » Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:32 am

I think there is a BIG difference between encouragement and pushing.

All parents, leaders, friends, etc. should encourage advancement!

And if 14 year old Eagles become the norm......well I guess we better hope the Venturing program can keep them involved...if not it may be a rocky road ahead for Scouting.
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Postby wagionvigil » Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:35 am

Nothing is different today than it was 40 years ago there were 13 and 14 year old Eagles then and there were 17 +11 month old Eagles. This thread could have been written in 1964 just as well as 2004. There are no age requirements JUST REquirements. Meet the requirements and that is all that BSA requires. It is not up to a BOR to decide if a SCout is mature enough. That is NOt a requirement. It there job to review if the scout has met the requirements as put forth by the BSA. If a BOR turns down a boy for Eagle they better have an excellent reason. One that would stand up in court and maturity will not do that. Criminal activity would be the only reason I could think of that may meet that requirement.
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Postby Guneukitschik » Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:45 am

wagionvigil wrote: There are no age requirements JUST REquirements.


I don't think anyone ever stated that there were age requirements?
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Postby wagionvigil » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:10 am

Implied! Age requirements."
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Postby Guneukitschik » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:43 pm

wagionvigil wrote:Nothing is different today than it was 40 years ago there were 13 and 14 year old Eagles then and there were 17 +11 month old Eagles. This thread could have been written in 1964 just as well as 2004.


You are correct.....this is endless!
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Advancement

Postby Scouting179 » Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:42 pm

If the unit leaders have done their job, their SHOULD be no reason to hold up someone at a BOR...this means ASMs, SM, Adv Chair, Comm Chair. Surprises do happen and the other big loophole is "Scout Spirit". I am the Adv Chair and my standard for Scout Spirit is obviously higher than those around me. So far, I've not held anyone up, but I came VERY close recently on a TFOOT BOR as the lad was a major discipline problem.

If a Scout meets the requirements and you hold him up, you must document it, tell him why, tell him how to fix the deficiency, and give him a timeline to do so. This applies to every rank, but is generally only seen for Eagle and Palms.

Earning EAGLE SCOUT, or any rank, can be done at any age. The BSA record for Eagle is 12y, 6 mos. We've had two make Eagle at 12 y 10 mos or so and they did fine, but I agree that not every Scout could handle it, it does take an adjustment time of 9-12 months, but you can not hold someone up at a BOR for age alone. They were both fine young men. We've also had several make it days before 18 y. Let them make it at their own pace, the right age is different for each one. Most never make it.

I think there are more young Eagles now is the FCFY program. If a Scout is motivated, GUIDE HIM, don't push him.
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Postby ICanCanoeCanU » Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:47 pm

If the unit leaders have done their job, their SHOULD be no reason to hold up someone at a BOR...this means ASMs, SM, Adv Chair, Comm Chair.


I didn't know this was a job? I thought I was a volunteer? So it's our JOB to make as many Eagles as we can? So much for a boy run troop with adults helping the boys to accomplish and acheive the program they choose?

I think the original question here was to share an experience if anyone did not pass someone during a BOR. If so, what were the circumstances. Not a discussion based on passing or not passing due to age, because this could go on forever!
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Postby Scouting179 » Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:02 pm

I didn't mean job as in a paying job, but as in responsibility in having accepted a volunteer position, chill out. Also, I NEVER said it was my nor anyone else's intent to make as many Eagles as possible, you read too much into what I said.

But you are right, this thread could go on forever, so I plan to leave it alone now.
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Postby ASM-142 » Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:56 am

In my troop there have been a number of cases where a boy has been turned down by either the SM or the BOR.

The SM turned down a boy for Star because he did not earn the swimming MB. He told him that he would never get Star unless he got swimming MB (which is against the requirements).

A BOR turned down a ASPL (fully trained and former PL and quartermaster) for Life because they felt that he did not demonstrate enough leadership. This is from members of board that did not visit meetings or camping trips. This same board advance another boy to Life after telling him that he needed leadership (never a APL, PL, ASPL, or SPL) and had to go to training. This was a year ago. The boy is life and never has gone to training but Life can not be taken away.
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Postby Scouting179 » Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:36 am

It sounds like your SC Conferences and BORs in your troop have not been applied consistently. They should be as consistent.
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Postby wagionvigil » Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:36 am

Are these recent happenings? Second anyone may appeal a BOR if they are turned down. The next step is on the district level. Then the Copuncil Advancement Committee then the Scout Executive.
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Postby ASM-142 » Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:42 am

The troop overall made changes in replacing board members (to include the chair) and the SM. The new board and SM have full support of the chartered organization and are now doing things on a consistent basis.
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Postby ASMROB68 » Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:29 pm

If we are doing our jobs as leaders we will not sign off a scout who does not meet the requirements. By the time of the BOR, all requirements should have been performed, recited, modeled, etc., by the scout to a leader and the leader should have made sure the socut did so in a proficient manner. If not then the leader did a big disservice to the scout. Having a scout do a task once in front of you doesn't mean the scout has met the requirement.
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Postby RWSmith » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:01 am

ASMROB68 wrote:Having a scout do a task once in front of you doesn't mean the scout has met the requirement.


While I'm not disagreeing with your overall post, I would like point out that... if a requirement -any requirement- says "do such-and-such [task]," then he has met the requirement. And many, many Boy Scout MB, Rank and other award requirements state just that. Conversely, some requirements actually say, "show proficiency" instead of "do" and this is a good reminder for us to stay as close to "No more; no less." as possible. That is not to say, of course, once a requirement is "done", he cannot be encouraged to practice and become proficient.

BTW, welcome to the board. (I've enjoyed several of the new-comers recent posts, including yours.)
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Postby ASM-142 » Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:13 am

We all must remember the "No more; no less." My troop at one time had a MB counselor who was a teacher and basically that graded written material for MBs (e.g., letters for Citizenships and resumes for Personal Management). If this material did not meet her grade she did not sign off on the MB
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Horror Story

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:29 am

Heard this last night at my last two Eagle BOR of boys that I had for 8 years in scouts.
A neighboring District turned down a boy at his Eagle BOR for Various resasons one being a lack of leadership. They gave him things he had to do to complete the task and they would call him back in for a BOR. Here is where it gets bad. They forgot. The SM did not call as they said they would call him back in. The Boy was just 18 at the first BOR so he went past the time Frame for a BOR. Finally when this was discovered the local BOR said Oh Too Bad. Someone from another District found out and Got to the Council Exec. He in turn called National and National said Fix it Now!
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Postby Scouting179 » Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:40 am

RE: the previous post where everyone (BOR members, SM, Eagle Candidate) "forgot"...This is the fault of ALL OF THE ABOVE...the adults because they did not full their responsibilities and the candidate for not showing more interest and initiative.
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