Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby Cowboy » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:27 pm

Yes, it did sound as if I was whining, and that was not the intent. I do realize that there is nothing that can be done at this point. I was using the example to
show that a Scout can "put on the show" when the SM is around. I do know that it is a failure of the Adult Leaders just as much (or more) as it is a failure of the Scout. The Scout has not been instructed properly. I brought this example as one (5) of those times that the TC should have stepped up and denied advancement based on the "Scout Spirit" qualifier. I know that this is not the first time that this has happened in the BSA. But due to the safeguards that are in place, thankfully, it is an extremely rare occurance.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby evmori » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:09 pm

The problem is that he GOT to the BOR. This is yet another case of a BOR trying to handle something that properly belonged at the Scoutmaster Conference. If the Scoutmaster signed off his conference and scout spirit requirements, the BOR really can't do anything other than examine the boy as he sits in front of them. It's the Scoutmaster's job to ascertain how he behaved at meetings and on campouts, not the BOR's.


I would agree about the getting to the BOR part. But the SM conference isn't a pass/fail requirement. All the Scout is required to do is participate. That's it! And yeah the BOR can do something. If they feel that this particular Scout is not ready to advance, then it is their duty not to advance this Scout. If they choose to go this route, they must document why the Scout isn't ready to advance & let the Scout know in writing why & how he can overcome this. And "Because we don't feel you are ready to advance" isn't a good reason. There has to be some hard facts to back up this decision.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:35 pm

Yet another example where no one wants to take personal responsibility.

The TC doesn't want to deal with irate parents or threat of litigation for "harming my boy's mental state"

The SM for passing on scouts that should not be. Remember you can have a SM conference but not sign off scout spirit.

The Scout who knows he's not holding up his end of the stick but has gotten by so far and no one has called him on it so why not continue my approach.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby WeeWillie » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:45 am

You just don't turn Scout Spirit on and off. How a Scout displays Scout Spirit within his troop is as much a part of a Scout's everyday life as doing chores at home without complaint (most of the time anyway), school behavior, and sports to name a few. A SM may know more about a Scout than the Scout's parents do because a SM doesn't have blinders on. If you have concrete examples of non-Scout behavior within or outside of the troop you may use those examples to deny a Scout advancement until he has shown improvement. During the SMC set clear, incremental goals. Finally, we are Scout leaders, not trial lawyers looking for hyper legal loopholes.

The ELSP is effectively a retest of previous Scout Advancement requirements. Look at all the planning and organizing requirements in MBs such as Family Life, Personal Fitness, Camping. Look at all the communications requirements in MBs such as Communications, Citizenship in the..., MB. Look at the leadership requiremements in the PORs. If a Scout is having difficulty in meeting the requirements for his ELSP then he probably didn't actually perform the original advancement requirements. If that is the case then. Make a Scout explain his project before approving the project. Make him rewrite it as often as it takes. If the day before the project the Scout got appendicities, could someone else lead the project? Tell Mom or Dad that during the project they are not allowed to help lead the project.

Remember that the problem is not the Scout, but the leaders and parents that allowed him to advance. Your Scout may actually appreciate you putting the brakes on Mom and Dad and allowing him to earn his Eagle.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby FrankJ » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:12 pm

Well said Mike. Now if we could only stick your version of ELSP on the scouting.org web site.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby nephron » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:59 pm

I am new.My son was up for Star BOR two days ago.He finished 4 service hours last week in addition to his prior required hours.He has 15 MB. He was at Philmont last summer. He is the troop Chaplain's assistant.He has been a patrol leader.He finished his Scoutmaster's meeting;the Scoutmaster has personally told me that he was ready to advance.At the BOR he was wearing the official uniform as defined on page 12 of the "Boy Scout Handbook".The BOR told him that he was not wearing the troop bolo and turned him down.No note,no appeal .My son is devastated and wants to quit.He doesn't want to wait another 3 months to try again.Is this what the Board of Review has become- a "gotcha" game to break the heart of a good kid?If I try to appeal this will my son be penalized by the adult leadership?Something is terribly wrong .
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby wagionvigil » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:12 pm

No way can they do that A uniform is not even required. I woulld speak to the people involved and explain that you are fully aware that what they did is against BSA policy and you will start making waves if they do not immediately schedule a BOR .If they say it is troop policy you tell them there is no such thing according to BSA Policies.


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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby alex gregory » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:14 pm

nephron wrote:The BOR told him that he was not wearing the troop bolo and turned him down.No note,no appeal .My son is devastated and wants to quit.He doesn't want to wait another 3 months to try again.Is this what the Board of Review has become- a "gotcha" game to break the heart of a good kid?If I try to appeal this will my son be penalized by the adult leadership?Something is terribly wrong .


This is terribly wrong. If the Advancement Chair was sitting on the BOR then insist on a new Advancement Chair. If the Advancement Chair was not on the BOR he/she should be disgusted by what happend and immediately schedule a new BOR that understands what it is supposed to be doing.

I doubt that this is an isolated incident. If things do not get a lot better I suggest your son earn his Eagle with another troop.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby Mrw » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:48 pm

nephron wrote:The BOR told him that he was not wearing the troop bolo and turned him down.No note,no appeal .My son is devastated and wants to quit.He doesn't want to wait another 3 months to try again.Is this what the Board of Review has become- a "gotcha" game to break the heart of a good kid?If I try to appeal this will my son be penalized by the adult leadership?Something is terribly wrong .


Yes, something is terribly wrong here. Not only should he not ever be turned down for what is really a pretty minor uniform issue, but the way in which he was turned down is also very wrong.

A not-passed BOR should be for something pretty substantial and the problem, solution for what to correct, and time-frame should be given to the boy in writing.

In addition, requiring a boy to wait an additional three months for a petty uniform ding is ridiculous!!!!!

If the adult leadership tries to retaliate against your son for you trying to correct this situation, find a new troop. And make sure the district personnel know that you had an issue and what it was. Your son may be the first to have this issue in your particular troop (or not) but there will be other kids victimized if the thinking and troop policy are not adjusted to match with National policies.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby nephron » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:05 pm

National Capital.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby Quailman » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:20 pm

I wonder if anyone else thought "Hmph. Petty bureaucrats!"
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby ThunderingWind » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:12 pm

Quailman wrote:I wonder if anyone else thought "Hmph. Petty bureaucrats!"
I was thinkg of a line from "Peter Pan." Chief says "Burn 'em at stake"
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:10 am

I agree with TW this is where the Troop leadership does need at leaste to be tarred and feathered. They do not belong in scouting. But als this is not unusual :?
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby evmori » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:43 am

The BOR told him that he was not wearing the troop bolo and turned him down.No note,no appeal .My son is devastated and wants to quit.He doesn't want to wait another 3 months to try again.Is this what the Board of Review has become- a "gotcha" game to break the heart of a good kid?If I try to appeal this will my son be penalized by the adult leadership?Something is terribly wrong .


Tar and feathering is too good and a waste of resources. Just shoot 'em!

Have you talked to the SM about this? Is this a common occurrence? Do we have the whole story?

If we do have the whole story, your son doesn't have to wait three months. Even if we don't have the whole story he doesn't have to wait. He can and should demand a letter as to why he was turned down. If he doesn't get one in a couple days, I would contact your Charter Partner & let them know what is happening and that you have appealed this to your District Advancement Chair.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:14 am

Here we go again. They told him no appeal? I would push this hard and hopefully get their attention. It may mean a troop move but better now than if they pulled this stunt at an EBOR. The applicable BSA publication is ACPP #33088. There are lots of other references on the site on BORs and appeals.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby nephron » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:50 am

Thank you for the posts.The suggestions about moving to another troop are unrealistic- most of his friends are in this troop.In addition, my other two sons are in the troop.I have gotten E-mails from other parents telling me to "suck it up" and move on.More than one has said that their kids did not pass the BOR but they came back. Others have supported the BOR decision-one saying that " it isn't a gimmie". I believe that there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a BOR is in this troop.The same night 3 other kids were turned down, 2 for uniform violations (no Scout socks).My son wants to let this drop because he is already embarassed.The Court of Honor is next Monday-I don't want him to spend the time watching other kids advance, including the son of the Board member who told him that he couldn't advance.Doesn't the BSA have some responsibility to make sure that advancement policies are uniform(poor choice of word)? When did the BOR become an Inquisition?
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:13 am

ALlthe rules are in the publication that is quoted in the post 168 did Get a copy and present it to the Advancement people and tell them you and the BSA expect these rules to be followed.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby Quailman » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:30 am

Enforcement of rules such as this can become a farce anyway. In the first troop my oldest son was associated with, BOR's were conducted in a separate room. It was a large troop, so there could be several on any given meeting night. Outside the room , kids would be trading out socks, neckerchiefs, belts, etc. so whoever was going in next wouldn't be dinged. I failed to see the point of that. The kid who didn't have a friend willing to lend him the socks off his feet is out of luck.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby evmori » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:41 am

Maybe it's time to be a bull in a china shop!

Get the Advancement stuff others have posted. Read it. Know it!

The next time there is a BOR for any Scout scheduled, get in there 1st and toss the book on the table & ask the BOR to show you where in the book not wearing a bolo (non-required uniform part) or socks is a reason to turn a Scout down. Point out the part that states if a Scout is denied advancement, he must be notified in writing. Ask them to show you where it states no appeals? Then before you walk out the door, tell them the District Advancement Chair has been notified & an appeal is in the works. Then wish each one a nice evening & go home.
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Re: Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

Postby alex gregory » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:40 am

nephron wrote:Thank you for the posts. The suggestions about moving to another troop are unrealistic- most of his friends are in this troop. In addition, my other two sons are in the troop. I have gotten E-mails from other parents telling me to "suck it up" and move on.


It sounds like your troop is rotten to the core. If your son's "friends" and their parents think that what is going on is just fine and dandy then guess what, they are not friends and they clearly are not Scouts. You are in an area with lots of other troops. Start visiting other troops and bring your sons' real friends with you!

You and all the other like-minded parents can go to every single committee meeting and stage a coup d'etat - you could take over as Committee Chair or Advancement Chair, and your SM is hardly impressive if he is letting this kind of stuff go on. As a practical matter your sons don't have time for a lot of strife, and I think your family should move on to a better troop.
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