Service Project Question for Star and Life

Scout Badge, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle Palms.

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Postby scouter01 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:41 pm

my sm always sign it off after i do it. they don't care.i still did it and i wsan't volunteering for a bad place, so they were fine.
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Postby eghiglie » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:32 pm

I may not get this correct but these requirements for Star and Life are not jsut to get something signed off but to get the boy used to asking for pre-approval. Because the Eagle project requires this.

The guideline in our Troop is to request in writing what the effort will be prior to doing it. This must be approved by the SM and a copy placed in the boys file.

The requirement also says "to others" we interpert this as outside of Scouting to start getting them use to being outside of there comfort zone.

However, if the boy is a worker on a Life Scouts Eagle project than that counts because the Eagle project does not benefit scouting.
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Postby Scout » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:36 pm

As an Eagle scout and a scoutmaster, it seems like I have always known that scouts must get pre-approval. Currently, I spell out the expectation on this requirement at SMC for Tenderfoot, First Class, and Star. The troop committee has agreemented to my expectation and the boys put at least 3 service projects a eyar on our calendar - one for our charter partner, one for church where we meet, and one for a local Nation Park.

My scouts know that day camp work is not acceptable for this requirement. The troop sees driect benefit when Webelos are looking for a scout troop.
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Postby WVBeaver05 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:44 pm

Scout wrote:My scouts know that day camp work is not acceptable for this requirement. The troop sees driect benefit when Webelos are looking for a scout troop.

Just curious - what is the basis for making day camp work not acceptable?
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Postby Scout » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:20 am

Scouts working day camp are functioning as Den Chief's - so says BSA at National Camping School and the training requirements for camp certification. Scouts working at day camp are filling leadership positions.

Second factor in not counting day camp work - relationships between Cubs and troops often form. All three of my sons did and as did more than half my scout who were Cub Scouts.
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Postby mhjacobson » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:52 pm

Little uncomfortable with the comment that the troop requires that the request be made "in writing . . .and a copy of the request be placed in the scout's file."

There is no requirement from the BSA that the prior request for a serice project on any level except Eagle be placed in writing. Remember the BSA standard for advancement: "nothing more nothing less."
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Postby Nuts4Scouts » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:41 am

Scout wrote:Scouts working day camp are functioning as Den Chief's - so says BSA at National Camping School and the training requirements for camp certification. Scouts working at day camp are filling leadership positions.

Second factor in not counting day camp work - relationships between Cubs and troops often form. All three of my sons did and as did more than half my scout who were Cub Scouts.


So, what happens to the Day Camp if they can't get any staff volunteers? Both the adult and youth staff are volunteering their time and doing service for the Cub Scout program. Yes, in some cases, they are leaders, but it is still service.

I would think that relationships forming between Cubs and Youth Staff would be a good thing. Why would that disqualify this as a service opportunity?

Are you saying that if Boy Scouts volunteered at a retirement home and formed relationships with the residents you would not approve that as service? How about if they helped out at a soup kitchen and became friends with some of the less fortunate people there, no approval as service?

What happens with the boy who volunteers at a homeless shelter tutoring the children, playing games with them, getting to know & like them, and maybe even helping some of them get into a Cub Scout Pack? Wait - I know, that would not count because the boy is doing everything incorrectly. He is showing leadership, forming relationships, and impacting Scouting. How dare he!

BTW - Here are the actual REQUIREMENTS -

"While a Star (First Class) Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least six hours of work."

Notice there are no exclusions for leadership, forming relationships, or doing service for/in the Scouting program.
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Postby Scout » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:06 pm

Question - should a scout get service hour credit for being a Den Chief, a leadership position that counts for advancement? If you say no, then how can you count working a day camp - a den chief position by BSA definition - as service hours?

The relationship between youth staff and cubs is a great thing. It helps mightily in any troop's recruiting efforts. For my troop day camp work coupled with helping a pack with pinewood derby took it from near collapse to over 30 active scouts in 2 years. My troop saw direct benefit from working day camp.

As a scout, I used to organize bingo games at an assisted living center using scouts to help the residents. Every boy involved developed relationship with at least one person there. But did my troop receive direct benefit? Maybe one of the donations to the troop was a result but knowing for sure is impossible. As to those underprivileged kids in the park, was the scout there to recruit (a First Class requirement) or to do something positive for a non-BSA community?[/quote]
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Postby FrankJ » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:32 pm

This is why service hours are pre- approved by the SM. The SM can make individual decisions based on the situation.

Serving as den chief for a POR would not count as service hours. The same den chief helping his den perform a service project would get credit for the actual service hours. At least in my book.
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Postby evmori » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:31 am

Question - should a scout get service hour credit for being a Den Chief, a leadership position that counts for advancement? If you say no, then how can you count working a day camp - a den chief position by BSA definition - as service hours?


No to both. While working a day camp is service, it is part of the POR. Service hours for rank are outside this.
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Postby wagionvigil » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:33 am

So if a scout is not a den chief does working at day camp count?
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Postby evmori » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:27 am

wagionvigil wrote:So if a scout is not a den chief does working at day camp count?


As service hours toward rank? I would say no.
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Postby wagionvigil » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:36 am

Ok lets look at this. Everyone puts their own twist on advancements we know that but when a scout attempts it does he meet the spirt of the requirement? That is what we must look at. This kept coming up at a training I went to this past year. WHat they said was "the requirement says this" But if the scout does it "this way" it still meets the spirt of the requirement. The only stipulation against benifiting scouting is Eagle.
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Postby scoutaholic » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:54 am

Scout wrote:My scouts know that day camp work is not acceptable for this requirement. ...

This makes no sense to me. If a boy VOLUNTEERS his time to help at day camp, how is that not service?

Scout wrote:Scouts working day camp are functioning as Den Chief's - so says BSA at National Camping School and the training requirements for camp certification. Scouts working at day camp are filling leadership positions. ...

So ? I can think of many ways that leadership can be service and service can be leadership.
Day camp is only a few hours. Even if it is officially given a position title, it isn't going to be enough to count towards months in a POR for their rank advancements. They will need a POR in their troop or local pack for that.

In our council the summer day-camp staff is a paid (8 weeks) position. Obviously if you are paid for it, then it is a job and not volunteer service hours. However, for the short term winter day camps or other unpaid camp positions, I don't see a problem with counting service hours.
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Postby cballman » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:04 pm

my take on this is. if we have a den chief at pack xxx to help out with the bears then it is a POSITION. if we have boys that help out at day camp and are CALLED den chief for the week then it is considered SERVICE. now that we see that both are called den chiefs but are in reality two different things. now we must remember that each one of use use different methods for each rank or position but if you look at the difference of methods everyone is not wrong.
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Postby cescout » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:08 am

Our scouts mostly earn them through helping eagle scout project with specific tasks such as making sure the flowerbeds get completed just like an asst.
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Postby mhjacobson » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:21 pm

The answer to this is simple -- prior to the day camp the scout meets with the SM and discusses whether or not the hours will count (read the manual) abd the decision is what controls whether or not the hours will count.
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Postby pipestone1991 » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:56 pm

evmori wrote:
wagionvigil wrote:So if a scout is not a den chief does working at day camp count?


As service hours toward rank? I would say no.


I disagree, I say yes, day camp (usually) is volunteer.
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Postby Hubert » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:42 pm

We actually pay to voulenteer!!! :lol: lol. But I do think it should count as service hours. You do give up your time to volenteer to do work.
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