ESSPW - Big changes

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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby Fred Johnson » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:32 pm

ronin718 wrote:I just tested it off the link in Doing your Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project and it worked just fine. Entry for Scout's name on page six fills in page eight. The unit leader is no longer the Scout.
Must be me then. I just flushed the browser cache and cleared out temp documents and downloaded it again. When I type in the unit leaders name on page six, it appears in the "Eagle Candidate Name" on page eight and the reverse happens too.
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby Quailman » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:56 pm

I used the link in the quote your post. I had never downloaded a copy with linked fields. It worked for me.
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby RWSmith » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:31 pm

Ah, the great axiom... "Have you flushed you catz, lately?" :evil:
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby Bill Pitcher » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:02 am

How is everyone handling the turn-over to the new ESLSP Workbook? I know that if they have started in the current one . . . have signatures and have started . . . they can finish in the current one. My questions are:
1. How long do we wait to finish in the old one? I have a Scout who did his project and has 4 meritbadges to finish with no finish in sight. He turns 18 next Fall!
2. What about the kid who has been working in the old workbook, but has NO signatures or aprovals yet? I have been telling Troops at Roundtables that the Eagle Candidates should start their proposal in the NEW ESLSP Workbook. Thoughts?
Eagle '63, ASM, Council Advancement Comm.(Eagle advisor),OA VIGIL member,NESA, council training staff,
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby FrankJ » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:39 am

In real life, it is going to be whatever YOUR council decides to accept. :) If it was my decision, if the project has district (council) approval, then use the paper work (work book) that was approved to finish the project. After some reasonable date announced by council only projects using the new work book would be approved. This means projects approved using the old (now current) workbook will be completed over the next couple of years, but you do not make the scout rewrite the project in the new workbook.

edited for grammar
Last edited by FrankJ on Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:43 pm

Bill Pitcher wrote:How is everyone handling the turn-over to the new ESLSP Workbook? I know that if they have started in the current one . . . have signatures and have started . . . they can finish in the current one. My questions are:
1. How long do we wait to finish in the old one? I have a Scout who did his project and has 4 meritbadges to finish with no finish in sight. He turns 18 next Fall!
2. What about the kid who has been working in the old workbook, but has NO signatures or aprovals yet? I have been telling Troops at Roundtables that the Eagle Candidates should start their proposal in the NEW ESLSP Workbook. Thoughts?


Here is the GTA ref (pg 52) :
This change is effective with the release of the Guide to Advancement and the 2011 revision of the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook. Scouts working on project plans at the time of release may choose to use either the changed, or previous, wording. The 2012 Boy Scout Requirements book will be updated accordingly.

For #1..If the EP is complete and all signed off then he would use that to submit for his EBOR. I wish I had more scouts that just needed MBs than just needed to do the project. :)
For #2: We talked about this at our DAC meeting last night. The thought was if he has ANY signatures to use the old WB, if not then he should use the new one. If he hadn't put any pen to paper, then his SM should have him use the new WB.

It is going to take awhile to "flush" the system.
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby DadScout » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:20 pm

Taken straight from Nationals www site
Attention Scouts, Leaders, and Parents or Guardians
Eagle Scout rank requirement 5 has been reworded. To support that change, a new Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook has been created. Through Dec. 31, 2011, Scouts have a choice to use either the new workbook or the one it is replacing. Scouts whose Eagle Scout service project has already been approved by the council or district under the former wording of requirement 5—and using the former workbook—should continue with the same workbook. If their project has not yet been approved by the council or district, they may elect to use the revised requirement 5 and the new workbook. Starting Jan. 1, 2012, Eagle Scout candidates—unless they have already submitted a plan for approval by the council or district under the former requirement—will be expected to fulfill the revised service project requirement 5 using the new workbook.


We have a Scout that just reached Life last night and I gave him the new book. He's hot to get start and has an idea already flushed out. I let him know it was his option to use the old if he thought it could be all approved by 12/31. Otherwise he might as well run with the new.
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:02 pm

Yep...the argument you might get is like many other nitpickers is, what constitutes approval submission. If he's finished the old book, makes no real sense to go back and refit the new one. Looking at the dates of the other signatures will be a telltale sign. A little common sense will apply. I think by 1 March the old WB will be only seen at EBORs not in the review process. Most scouts after looking at the new WB will see that it is to their benefit to use it.

We have EWB roundtable training across all districts tonight and next thursday.
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby Bill Pitcher » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:23 pm

I agree with ALL of you, and it's my thinking exactly. So, THANKS. I'd like to have a New EWB training at our Roundtables, and we DID have a brief one last month to announce it and where to download a copy. But, we haven't had an active AC Chairman for 5 - 6 months (2 deaths in his family). So, no one is "taking the ball and running with it" as far as calling an AC meeting to make important decisions. A new ACC has been selected, but NO ONE will let us meet until the December Council BoD announces his appopintment. The gears move so s . l . o . w . l . y!
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby FrankJ » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:59 pm

National has spoken subject (or least has put something on the web site)

Attention Scouts, Leaders, and Parents or Guardians
Eagle Scout rank requirement 5 has been reworded. To support that change, a new Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook has been created. Through Dec. 31, 2011, Scouts have a choice to use either the new workbook or the one it is replacing. Scouts whose Eagle Scout service project has already been approved by the council or district under the former wording of requirement 5—and using the former workbook—should continue with the same workbook. If their project has not yet been approved by the council or district, they may elect to use the revised requirement 5 and the new workbook. Starting Jan. 1, 2012, Eagle Scout candidates—unless they have already submitted a plan for approval by the council or district under the former requirement—will be expected to fulfill the revised service project requirement 5 using the new workbook.
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby Fred Johnson » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:33 pm

I still really like the new ESSPW. Here's a minor feedback. And I don't really know if I'd make a change for this or not.

The "final plan" begins with the question "What suggestions were offered by the council or district representative who approved your proposal?". LOL. The scout took notes ... sort of ... during the sign-off meeting. And the district rep probably didn't remember that the next section started with that question. But the scout waited a week or two before progressing and the first thing I heard back was that he was trying to remember all the comments. It might be nice to insert that question right before or right after the sign-off ... on the same page. :)
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby Fred Johnson » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:21 pm

Topic was raised at last night's troop meeting.

ESSPW says: "*Power tools considered hazardous, like circular saws, must be operated by adults who are experienced in their use. See the Guide to Safe Scouting." I don't see it yet in the 2011 G2SS but I know a new G2SS is coming. So...


The project in question has a fair number of cuts to be done and a good number of screws to be added. So here's what I was going to suggest to the coach / scout.


#1 Eagle candidate should hold a short training session for scouts using any tool or any process.

#2 Skilled adults only - circular saws, power saws, power miter box

#3 Scouts - hand held power drills for pre-drilling holes and driving screws



QUESTION - hand-held router for rounding edges. I'm more concerned with quality then safety with this one. Routers are pretty safe if handled appropriately. So if the eagle candidate can train another scout to use it with sufficient quality, do you think it's okay to have a scout using a power router? Heck, I'd rather have a scout using a power router than an axe yard.

Comments?
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby FrankJ » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:54 pm

According to the yet unreleased G2SS (look for 4/1 release date) you will be expected to follow OSHA standards which will mean no one under 18 may work on an construction site or use powered wood working tools. So the eagle candidate really should not supervise the operation of these tools. One of the hazards of invoking rules before you read them.

At least to me, a router is every bit as dangerous as circular saw. Its movement can be unpredictable, slower to spin on, Doesn't turn off automatically, & sharp end is unprotected.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out or if it is just ignored by every body.

From a purely safety perspective, power tools need to be well supervised by competent people regardless what safety standards you are using.
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby Fred Johnson » Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:18 pm

Thanks. I'm not a lawyer or expert. When you said OSHA, I looked. OSHA routed me to "Fair Labor Standards Act". That routed me to "Child Labor Provisions for Nonagricultural Occupations Under the Fair Labor Standards Act" and something called "HO 5" (Hazardous Occupations Orders).

HO 5 limits power tools use and defines the limitation as ... "Power-driven woodworking machines shall mean all fixed or portable machines or tools driven by power and used or designed for cutting, shaping, forming, surfacing, nailing, stapling, wire stitching, fastening or otherwise assembling, pressing or printing wood, veneer, trees, logs, or lumber.

IMHO, that means they can't even use a power drill. Hmmm....

Perhaps I should talk to our pack den leader to mention he should not be letting the Tigers use his band saw on their derby cars. (just joking there). But seriously, it probably means putting away the hobby sander he does let them use. :oops:
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby FrankJ » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:32 pm

FLSA applies to employment. HO 14 & 15 are probably closer to what you would on a typical build it type eagle project. It really doesn't apply to what parents allows their children to do. Applying it to things like eagle projects & mission trips is short sighted in my opinion. Although it probably good to have good insurance when using my opinions. :)

If you are going to apply work rule laws to boyscouts it is also going to limit merit badge like woodworking, metalworking & welding.
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby Fred Johnson » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:22 pm

FrankJ wrote:If you are going to apply work rule laws to boyscouts it is also going to limit merit badge like woodworking, metalworking & welding.


I can't see the difference between FLSA HO 5 and HO 14. They seem almost exactly the same. BUT both have exemptions for educational use ... "apprentice and student learners enrolled in an approved program" specifically. I don't know if that means scouts.

It's all moot though. That new BSA G2SS is not out yet and OSHA / FLSA doesn't seem directly to apply until BSA says we must follow OSHA in the new G2SS. It's hard to be compliant with a publication that's not released yet. :)

So I'm going to use the current Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook. It says hazardous tools. IMHO, we'll treat circular saws, band saws, power miter boxes and such as hazardous. IMHO, for now, we'll exclude hand held power drills from the hazardous list. It would kill his construction project to use a hand drill to pre-drill and then a screw driver to drive the screws. He has just too many to do with just a screwdriver. Three scouts with a bit of EDGE training on how to drive screws could do it in a reasonable time. Manually, I'd hate to think about it.

...

Thank you for the feedback!!!!! I've learned that MeritBadge.net is a forum I can depend on for good answers.
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby razor_strop » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:20 pm

While we're at it, we should probably ban all climbing activities, aquatic activities deeper than 6", shooting sports and all other outdoor activities due to the chance of lightning strikes. :roll:

Yes, I fully acknowledge that there is a risk of serious injury or death from some power tools. However, with proper supervision and training their use can be just as safe as any of the other inherently risky activities in which Scouts partake.

Part of my son's Eagle project involved the use of a band saw. Rather than have the adults take over "for the safety of the children" (gag!), all the Scouts that were interested were given a short block of instruction on using a band saw by an adult, conducted a "dry run" (practicing keeping their hands clear of the blade without the saw running), made some practice cuts on scrap wood, and then cut the parts required for the project, all under close adult supervision. To a Scout, they loved the experience as most had never been exposed to a powered saw, and it even encouraged a couple to earn their Woodworking MB.

Nearly all Scouting activities have a degree of risk involved. I would argue that statistics tell us merely riding in a vehicle on the highway to an event is many times more potentially deadly than using a table saw or drill press. I don't believe there was a reasonable balancing of the potential for learning vs. the potential for injury conducted by BSA in the formation of this new guideline, especially in light of the clarification on an EP requiring two-deep adult leadership.
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby Quailman » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:27 pm

All this talk about the danger of power tools. Am I the only one here who's received a serious cut from a crosscut saw?
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby Fred Johnson » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:40 pm

Quailman wrote:All this talk about the danger of power tools. Am I the only one here who's received a serious cut from a crosscut saw?
Yes. :D

...

Considering the axe yards I've seen over the years.... I can't blame BSA. I'm sure they roll their eyes too at some of it. But it's the society we live in and BSA is big with deep pockets.
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Re: ESSPW - Big changes

Postby cdwscout » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:43 pm

Hey, we should probably ban knives while we're at it... I've injured myself more times with my knife than with a power tool...

Also, we shoul only "camp" in cabins, just like the girl scouts...
Yours in scOUTING,
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