Guide to advancement

[FrankJ]

The OA is touted as the Scouting Honor Society. There should be standards more than nights spent outside. Granted it is more of a popularity vote but... In the election guide lines:

4. Have these requirements certified by the Scoutmaster, and be given a general endorsement of the
candidate’s Scout Spirit by the Scoutmaster, BEFORE the election is conducted.

Looks like scout spirit to me.

Once again I am not defending the troop in Jerry's post. Defining active on participation on a specific event is short sighted at best.

[smtroop168]

Don't disagree. Mine was off the OA web site. http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/oabasicinfo.htm

[Nuts4Scouts]

Also off the National OA web site -

http://www.oa-bsa.org/resources/pubs/GOA-2010.pdf

The 2010 Guide for Officers and Advisers - Page 20 - Membership Requirements -

"Unit leader approval. To become eligible for election, a
Boy Scout or Varsity Scout must be registered with the Boy
Scouts of America and have the approval of his unit leader
prior to the election. The unit leader must certify his
Scout spirit (i.e., his adherence to the Scout Oath and Law
and active participation in unit activities). The unit leader
must also certify that the nominee meets all specified
requirements at the time of this annual election"

Page 22 - Unit Elections -

"A Boy Scout or Varsity Scout who carries a current
national membership card and participates in at least
some unit activities during the year is considered to be a
registered active member of the unit. For example, a
youth away at college who participates in some unit activities
when home, such as a campout, camporee, or occasional
unit meeting, should be considered a registered
active member."


Adding two eligible youth to the ballot should have no affect on who, or how many, youth are elected. All that is needed is votes on 50% of the returned ballots, and the boys can vote for as many candidates as they wish.

[wagionvigil]

Also off the National OA web site -

http://www.oa-bsa.org/resources/pubs/GOA-2010.pdf

The 2010 Guide for Officers and Advisers - Page 20 - Membership Requirements -

"Unit leader approval. To become eligible for election, a
Boy Scout or Varsity Scout must be registered with the Boy
Scouts of America and have the approval of his unit leader
prior to the election. The unit leader must certify his
Scout spirit (i.e., his adherence to the Scout Oath and Law
and active participation in unit activities). The unit leader
must also certify that the nominee meets all specified
requirements at the time of this annual election"

Page 22 - Unit Elections -

"A Boy Scout or Varsity Scout who carries a current
national membership card and participates in at least
some unit activities during the year is considered to be a
registered active member of the unit. For example, a
youth away at college who participates in some unit activities
when home, such as a campout, camporee, or occasional
unit meeting, should be considered a registered
active member."


Adding two eligible youth to the ballot should have no affect on who, or how many, youth are elected. All that is needed is votes on 50% of the returned ballots, and the boys can vote for as many candidates as they wish.

This was before the change in elections that happened in the late 90's early 2000's

[smtroop168]

Another example of the same web site providing two different answers to the same question.

[Fred Johnson]

About 30 days or so.

Nine days or so.... tick. tick. tick.

[smtroop168]

Fred...we have decided to assign you the task of giving us all a full briefing once the book comes out.

[Fred Johnson]

The only thing I can brief is a large set of questions.

I still remember being burnt a few years ago after my 2nd son joined a very young troop. I tried to influence a few small advancement practices. Not huge issues (debates on denying a POR credit to a troop guide they didn't think did enough, 40 min BORs for 1st class, ...). I was promoting what I understood to be the BSA policies. I had the relatively new 2010 (??) ACPP pub 33088 and had given away my older 2009 (?? - not 100% sure on year) ACPP to a scout parent in my 1st son's troop who was dealing with advancement for his significantly autistic / disabled son.

At a committee meeting for the young troop, I said I'd get a couple of copies so we could review / discuss the issues at the next committee meeting. I went to the scout shop and learned all the copies had been pulled and they had no idea when the new copies would be available. (That feels like over two years ago though it's probably slightly less.)

So my only ACPP copy was the one that BSA pulled back and wouldn't sell anymore. I had no idea what part of that new copy was of concern and/or invalid. There was no BSA statement that the previous copy was to be considered effective. AND, the previous copy was not published or available for purchase. So essentially BSA left us without an ACPP for near two years.

Now, ... if you are smart ..., you can find the PDF of the 2009 pub 33088 at scouting.org. Back then, I could not find it anywhere or any BSA statement about it.

It really took the wind out of the sails to get things changed. I'm really sort of miffed at the situation still, as I'm sure everyone can tell.

The only relief is that the scout store staff are just as miffed at the situation. According to them, this is not the 1st time BSA has done this with a key document. Their position now (at least they say) is that they won't pull documents off the shelves unless they have a new version to replace them.

[smtroop168]

Fred...the 2008 (current) version would have answered all the your questions you list. The 2009 version didn't change really that much anyway. The 2008 version has been available on the internet all along. Also your District Adv Comm should have been able to provide you info or come to your meeting and provide training.

[Fred Johnson]

Agreed and that's how I've dealt with many things for the last few years. Also, I've easily found PDFs of most of the BSA publications available through non-BSA sources. And, I've compared my paper 2010 ACPP against previous versions. Not that much changed.

BUT ... try to find an official BSA answer on the ACPP status or find an official BSA copy.. It's darn near impossible. It's like it just fell off the side of the earth. To the best of what I've found, BSA never says the PDF is available online or that it's current or anything else about it. In fact, the only reference I've found is on an advancement reference page and a FAQ web page I've used repeatedly. It has links to other PDFs of BSA publications, but NOT to the ACPP pub.

REF - http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/resources.aspx
FAQ - http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/RankAdvanceFAQ.aspx

When I search scouting.org for "advancement committee policies and procedures" or "acpp", scouting.org responds with "Server Error in '/' Application. " Now that I know to use Google and search for it using "site:scouting.org" I've found it. BUT if BSA does not link to it's own document in the earlier web pages, how do I know it's current or just another part of the BSA site that's dead, out-of-date or accidentally left there or left there for another reason.


People? You recommended asking the district advancement person. My experience with asking individuals is hit and miss. In scouting as in life, it's common to ask three different people and get three significantly different answers. I've learned that a few select people including a few at the local scout shop are usually right. Our previous district advancement person (replaced ten months ago) was promoting their own troop flavor of advancement for everyone. I'm always sad to think of the number of kids that probably gave up on earning Eagle because of obstacles that were added. (no response for months, extra documents requested, review/change request approval cycles of five or more times taking months to complete, pigeon holing scouts he didn't think were worthy of eagle)

Heck, I just heard our council president speak this weekend. He joked about something that I looked over at a fellow leader and asked if he heard what I heard. He did and we both agreed that what was said is pretty much a no-no in scouting today. (but that's a very different topic)

Anyway, looking forward to an official document in the next week or so.

[smtroop168]

Here you go!

https://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php? ... 562825f940

[Quailman]

The Cardinals eliminated the Phillies earlier this evening, and now this!!! My day can't get any better!

[Reasonable Rascal]

I bow to greatness.

RR

[eaglescout92]

Very Nice Thank You!!

[Nuts4Scouts]

Wonderful!

Now, when does the online version go up?

The book states "after publication". Does that mean this is just a preliminary copy, and has not been published for the masses yet?

[FrankJ]

Interesting tid bits. Common sense is actually mentioned in the GTA. So are we acknowledging that common sense is a skill set BSA leaders are expected to use?

Eagle project leaders & project reviewers are going to have to study child labor laws to know what jobs the youth will be allowed to do. Strictly speaking most jobs involving power tools will be out.

Nice change to active & POR definitions.

Looks like a lot of hard work by a lot of dedicated people.

[kwildman]

so is this the new standard? Is it officially out now?

thanks for the document.

[smtroop168]

so is this the new standard? Is it officially out now?

thanks for the document.

Yes

Interesting tid bits. Common sense is actually mentioned in the GTA. So are we acknowledging that common sense is a skill set BSA leaders are expected to use?

Eagle project leaders & project reviewers are going to have to study child labor laws to know what jobs the youth will be allowed to do. Strictly speaking most jobs involving power tools will be out.

Nice change to active & POR definitions.

Looks like a lot of hard work by a lot of dedicated people.

We did it all while riding a Tandem!!!

Wonderful!

Now, when does the online version go up?

The book states "after publication". Does that mean this is just a preliminary copy, and has not been published for the masses yet?

No..it's out in mass distro to all Council Execs

[smtroop168]

You guys are pretty dormant on this so far. The posters on other forums are more vocal. I'm amazed at the unkind, unhelpful, unfriendly, and discourteous comments--and these are probably some of the same Scouters who will quickly accuse others of not following the Scout Law. These people have no business being involved in Scouting and setting examples for our youth.

[agdparker]

You guys are pretty dormant on this so far. The posters on other forums are more vocal. I'm amazed at the unkind, unhelpful, unfriendly, and discourteous comments--and these are probably some of the same Scouters who will quickly accuse others of not following the Scout Law. These people have no business being involved in Scouting and setting examples for our youth.

I've read through about half of it, but it seems like a solid effort to clean up some common issues. The new section on participation is great and I was very impressed with how it was handled. As others have mentioned, I do fear what some people may consider "reasonable", but I understand why it was done. The layout is nice and it's a good read thus far.

My thanks to you and those that worked so hard on this. You guys broached some difficult subjects and I don't envy the effort it took to get this new version out.