Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

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Re: Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

Postby kc9901mom » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:29 pm

Per Scouting.org web site:
"The Leave No Trace Trainer helps minimize impact on the land by teaching members the principles of Leave No Trace and improving Scouts’ outdoor ethics decision-making skills. The senior patrol leader may appoint a Scout, 14 years or older who has successfully completed the official 16-hour Leave No Trace Trainer training course, to serve as the troop Leave No Trace Trainer. A Scout under the age of 14, or who has not completed Leave No Trace Trainer training, may serve as an instructor teaching Leave No Trace skills until he obtains the necessary training."

I also just read the National Training Guidelines from http://www.lnt.org and there are no age limits in the guidelines for participants in the Trainer course (the 16-hour course). My personal opinion is that if a Scout is mature enough to be a Den Chief (minimum age 13?) then he is mature enough to participate in a LNT Trainer course. In reviewing the responsibilities of the Den Chief, I think that maybe the LNT Trainer course should also be part of the requirements for Den Chief. In addition and furthermore, if Scouts can earn the Backpacking/Hiking/Camping MB at any age and rank then it seems odd to deny a Scout who is interested and dedicated to the LNT Cause the opportunity to participate in the Trainer Course because of age. I think participant experience in outdoor activities (such as camping, hiking, backpacking, fishing, hunting, etc.) should count for something.
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Re: Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

Postby FrankJ » Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:19 pm

The hard headed part of me would pull out the 2012 requirements book & ask where in it does it have the course as a requirement for the position. And then ask are if you adding to the requirements. :o Apparently the Boy Scout LNT committee feels this should be the requirement. Has it or does it need to be approved by another committee I do not know.

The LNT section of the ITOLS is only 30 minutes long & it qualifies adults to present the material to the youth. (Actual it really doesn't, but it is what is in the syllabus) To expect an youth to take a 16 hr course for the same effect is a little strange. On the other hand you don't begin to cover LNT in a 30 minute session without doing a lot of additional reading.

Anyway if you have a youth that really gets LNT, but has not had the 16 hr course, you can always make him a troop guide or instructor with the same effect.
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Re: Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

Postby Quailman » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:05 pm

kc9901mom wrote:Another Council is offering the training for Adults and Scouts but they have an age requirement of 14 to register for the class. The class is in Oct. a month before my son's 13th Birthday.


Have you tried contacting the council that's offering the class? There may be other reasons that a LNT limitation. It could be that since it's for both youth and adult they decided to restrict it so the adults wouldn't be driven crazy if all their classmates were eleven year-olds. It could also be because the class openings are a limited resource and one way to filter who gets to attend is to impose an age limit. If it's either of these reasons, the registrar might allow your son to attend.
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Re: Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:29 pm

I don't know the reason for the age restriction.

My suggestion is that he seek out a different POR for his next rank to grow other skills than LNT and Hornaday Project helper. He's a prime candidate for PL. Not sure I would approve HP helper as a sub for a POR but I don't obviously have all the info.
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Re: Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

Postby kc9901mom » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:20 am

:) I am betting that the age restriction has something to do with insurance liability on behalf of BSA because the 16-hour course is supposed to have some type of "primitive camping" aspects (digging cat holes).

My son earned his First Class Rank at the end of March and he has not been put in a POR because there are no PORs available. Furthermore, my son has yet to be assigned a Patrol. Two options are available here: (1) My son can ask the SPL to appoint him as the Troop LNT Instructor or (2) A Scout may ask the SM for a SM assigned Leadership Project to help the troop. My son asked for option 2. The SM said that he could not think of anything at that moment but to contact him in a few days and also think of some project possibilities. My son and I researched some ideas and my son presented his ideas and the SM chose the Unit Hornaday Award. My son is not just a "HP helper" :) . It is my son's responsibility to come up with a project that will earn the Troop a Unit Hornaday Award, get approval, get 60% of his Troop to participate in the completion of the project, fill out the paperwork for the Award, acquire the necessary signatures, and submit the paperwork. Keep in mind that a Hornaday Project is the same as an Eagle Project with stricter requirements (and Hornaday Projects can benefit BSA property).

The LNT Instructor is responsible for teaching the Scouts LNT skills and ensure that the Troop is utilitilizing the principles of LNT during outdoor activities. The Trainer Course does allow a Scout to teach LNT 101 (LNT Awareness) which according to LNT should take 30 minutes to go over all 7 principles. Should Troops allow the LNT Instructor/Trainer to present the 7 principles to the entire Troop during one meeting or during a campout? My answer and opinion is no. I believe that the intent for a LNT Instructor/Trainer is to present each principle over time (either weekly, bi-weekly, or monthly; pick one principle per month then plan a 5-10 minute activity for each meeting) and to observe Scouts during outdoor activities to ensure that each Scout is adhering to LNT principles. A good LNT Instructor/Trainer will include "hands-on" activities to illustrate why people should follow LNT principles (games, skits, songs, etc) and also maybe implement an AAR (After Action Review) for outdoor activities.
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Re: Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

Postby Quailman » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:37 am

My advice for the Hornaday Unit Award would be for your son to do his own Hornaday Project. To qualify for the Hornaday Badge, he would have to earn certain merit badges, but he does not need to have earned all of them before he starts. The Unit Award can be earned by having sixty percent of the troop participate in his project. In other words, two awards (individual and unit) for the same project. With the effort you described, he should go the extra step and get the individual award. Then he'll be on his way toward a Silver or Bronze Hornaday Medal, should he choose that path. Only about ten of those are awarded annually nationwide.
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Re: Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

Postby kc9901mom » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:36 pm

Thanks for the advice Quailman.

I would like to know if my assumption is correct about the age requirement. I read in the ILST about PORs and the only age restriction for a POR is JASM.
Last edited by kc9901mom on Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

Postby razor_strop » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:31 pm

Viewing this from a Woodbadge ticket perspective, what happens if 60% of the troop doesn't participate and the unit doesn't earn the award? Is the Scout's successful completion of his POR project based on the troop actually earning the award, or on the effort and detail he puts into the project plan? It would be a shame if it's the former, and only 50% of the troop shows up.
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Re: Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

Postby FrankJ » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:54 am

The 14 age requirement comes from here
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/OutdoorProgram/OutdoorEthics/LeaveNoTraceTrainer.aspx

The question is has the requirement been a approved by the committee that approves the actual rank requirements & if so why is it not in the requirements book where it should be. Some of the confusion is LNT is a separate organization that the BSA is a partner to. They have a bunch of copyrighted names that you are only supposed to use in certain ways. "Leave No Trace Trainer" is apparently one of them.

One way are another, if you are going to have somebody in this position, he should understand what LNT is and not teach the myths that surround it. The material needs to come from the LNT organization's guidelines. It is a lot more than the couple of pages in the scout hand book. But there are a bunch of resources to learn from. A good starting place is here.
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/TeachingLeaveNoTrace.aspx

Or you could go to the horses mouth
http://www.LNT.org
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Re: Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

Postby scoutaholic » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:56 pm

kc9901mom wrote:... My son is not just a "HP helper" :) . It is my son's responsibility to come up with a project that will earn the Troop a Unit Hornaday Award, get approval, get 60% of his Troop to participate in the completion of the project, fill out the paperwork for the Award, acquire the necessary signatures, and submit the paperwork. Keep in mind that a Hornaday Project is the same as an Eagle Project with stricter requirements (and Hornaday Projects can benefit BSA property). ...


The Hornaday Unit award is a certificate awarded by the local council to a pack/troop/team/crew "...for a unique, substantial conservation project". The requirements and application form say nothing about the project being on the same scale (or paperwork) as an Eagle Project. Remember, a pack can earn it. They can't possibly expect a group of cubs to do a project like an Eagle. The individual awards have to be a more involved project (and there are no published requirements for cubs to do it.) If you choose to do as Quailman suggested and do a project for an individual award, then it should be a big project. If you are just going for the unit award, it doesn't have to be that big.
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Re: Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

Postby kc9901mom » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:59 pm

scoutaholic wrote:and application form say nothing about the project being on the same scale (or paperwork) as an Eagle Project

Yes, the application for Unit Award does state the following:
"The scope of the project should be appropriate for the type of unit applying. For a Boy Scout unit, the project is to be equivalent in scope to an Eagle scout leadership project."
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Re: Positions of Responsibility Restrictions

Postby kc9901mom » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:25 pm

I wrote to National about the age requirement. Their answer has nothing to do with Leave No Trace Center for Outdoor Ethics or with Insurance. It is just an arbitrary age that the Ethics Committee decided on to uphold the standards. I believe that there are better ways to uphold the standards and I made my suggestions.
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