A Failed Board of Review

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Postby mt_goodrich » Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:36 pm

In every unit I have been in, one of the things I try to get other adult leaders to understand is that it isn't difficult to follow the policies and guidelines that BSA has.

The problem I've run into is that these folks do not bother to take the time to take advantage of all the training and other material provided by BSA. For some reason, they think that they know better than an organization that has been in existence for nearly 100 years.

Do I agree with every policy/rule that BSA has? Absolutely not. However, I do know that these policies/rules are in place for a reason. And if I am very passionate about something I feel needs to be changed, there are procedures to go thru.

My frustration is with my brother-in-law. His son (my nephew) is in my troop. My BIL recently became involved in the troop committee. He is constantly questioning why certain policies/rules are in place. His response is "geez....that is stupid" and he throws an eye roll in there.

First major problem he had is we went camping and he went along. We were at a state run lake. We all decided to go to the general store to get ice cream. He tells all the boys to load up in the back of his pick up truck and I had to immediately step in and tell the boys "no....we cannot ride in the back of pickup trucks". My BIL then begins to argue with me in front of the boys of how that is stupid and no one will get hurt. I stood my ground and he was telling the boys it was all my fault they had to walk the 1/4 mile to the store.

This is the same person I have been trying to get to attend training for the past six months. I told him that if he went and attended the training, he would have a much better understanding of how things work and why certain policies/rules are in place. I keep getting "I'm too busy to go to training".
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Postby Hubert » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:05 am

At the given time, my troop did not have enough Com. Members to have enough for a BoR, so we improvised.

I can not find where it states that a BoR can ONLY have troop comettie members on it, can someone find it for me? I can not find it at all, all that I have found is that:

In almost every case, the board of review is conducted by at least three members of the troop committee.


This does say in ALMOST every case, so there can be exceptions. By the way this is worded, it is unclear. Because one can see it as I do, meaning there can be exceptions to the only troop comm. rule.

I do not wish to keep argueing this, however, I really do not understand the harm in having a non-troop Com. member on the board. If someone can find me the National Policy where it is stated where it has to be only troop Com. mebers I would greatly apreciate it.
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Postby smtroop168 » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:37 am

Hubert...did you read my post?

National BSA Policies Related To Boards Of Review




Review for Tenderfoot Through Life Ranks and Eagle Palms. After a Scout has completed all requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, and Life ranks, or an Eagle Palm, he appears before a board of review. This board of review is made up of at least three and not more than six members of the troop committee.

It doesn't say "in almost every case"
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Postby wagionvigil » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:39 am

Hubert you ae correct. It does not say "must have." The BOR training Guide is the Gospel for BOR's and that statement "almost every Case"Gives the Troop leadership some leeway. That is like saying "should"instead of "must" If something is mandatory is says Must
AN example " To join a Venturing Crew you Must be age 14 and finished grade 8"
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Postby smtroop168 » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:42 am

"In almost every case" means usually you get 3 Comm members but it can be up to 6. Trying to get 3 is tough sometimes depending on your committee
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Postby wagionvigil » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:00 am

Who Conducts the Board of Review?
In almost every case, the board of review is conducted by at least three members of the troop committee. The Scoutmaster and assistant Scoutmasters are not members of the board of review. The Scoutmaster can introduce the Scout to the board members and may sit with him to hear the board's decision, but should not be present during the actual board of review. Obviously, the Scout's parent should not serve on his board of review panel.

All boards must constitute at least three and not more than six members who are all 21 years of age or older.
Now lets look closer at the above and I am nit picking. The words "committee members" are not in the last sentance so there is the leeway. There is the Out.
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Postby smtroop168 » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:01 am

My reference is National Policy...don't see any "out".

Wagion and Hubert are using a training module. It's pretty obvious that the word "committee" was left out of his bolded statement since it is referred to in the first sentence. But I'm not a lawyer, just seen lots of them who can argue for their clients.

I'm outta here to work on something importtant....my son's Eagle project.
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Postby wagionvigil » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:17 am

Good thing to do today. Hope it goes well.

ALso when you are back where is the National Policy Reference you are refering to? I do not doubt it but I must have concrete information. AS you see the Traing for the BOR does not have the committee in the sentance. IMO this is BSA Double talk. BSA allows an out on most items. I do not agree with this but they do.
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Postby smtroop168 » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:55 am

My post of 20 Feb came from this link. Is this not correct?

http://www.meritbadge.com/info/policy4.htm
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Postby wagionvigil » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:58 am

Not Current will be updated.
The training Is directly from the BSA Website.
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Postby PaulSWolf » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:00 pm

wagionvigil wrote:Who Conducts the Board of Review?
In almost every case, the board of review is conducted by at least three members of the troop committee. The Scoutmaster and assistant Scoutmasters are not members of the board of review. The Scoutmaster can introduce the Scout to the board members and may sit with him to hear the board's decision, but should not be present during the actual board of review. Obviously, the Scout's parent should not serve on his board of review panel.

All boards must constitute at least three and not more than six members who are all 21 years of age or older.
Now lets look closer at the above and I am nit picking. The words "committee members" are not in the last sentence so there is the leeway. There is the Out.
The "In almost every case" portion refers to the EAGLE Board of Review, which does NOT follow the same requirements. In fact all but one of the members of an EBoR don't even have to be members of BSA.
For all other Boards of Review, the members of the Board MUST be members of the Unit Committee.
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Postby smtroop168 » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:46 pm

EXACTLY. Otherwise you could have any 3 Yahoos from down the street sit on a BOR and you would have no leg to stand on.

BORs with no Troop committee members are also held at the District/Council level when appeals are heard.

Paul..so is the policy I pulled off meritbadge.com current?
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Postby Hubert » Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:16 pm

In my case though, we had no choice. After you removed my step father, the CC, and my mother, A CM, we had 2 Comm. members. So we had to pull from outside.
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Postby PaulSWolf » Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:44 pm

Hubert wrote:In my case though, we had no choice. After you removed my step father, the CC, and my mother, A CM, we had 2 Comm. members. So we had to pull from outside.

That's why we encourage as many as possible on the committee, rather than as ASM's. The MC's (not SM - Cubmaster) can always assist in manner similar to the ASM's.
Hubert also wrote:Paul..so is the policy I pulled off meritbadge.com current?

YES. It says "In almost every case", which is true. As I said, the exception is the EBoR, which has different rules.
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Postby scoutaholic » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:33 pm

ThunderingWind wrote:
Fibonacci wrote:
11) Work with a college to create a major in Youth Services with Scouting (Boy or Girl) to help create more professional Scouters.

Our previous District Executive has a degree in something like Youth Leadership from BYU.


That is more broad focused. I would like to see a more narrow focused degree thus the name Youth Services with Scouting.

They would take course work in fitness, outdoor skills, Lifesaving and other Scout skills and course designed aroung knwoing to program. One track would be Fund Raising, one track would be Scouting Program (units and youth). It is this last group that would be professional Camp Directors later in life.


The BYU Department of Recreation Management and Youth Leadership offers a major in Scouting Education. The mission of this major and the department is to recruit, prepare and place young people in professional Scouting.

Scouting Education provides students with a broad-based educational experience including exposure to the liberal arts and a strong foundation in human relations, non-profit finance and leadership skills.

Curriculum includes: Organization Leadership, Public Speaking, Marketing Management, Church and Scouting, BSA Programs, Outdoor Leadership, Computer Applications, BSA Finance, BSA Leadership, BSA Administration, and Academic Internship.

Much of this information is taken directly from a BYU pamphlet promoting the major.
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Postby wagionvigil » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:21 pm

OK I stand corrected :oops:
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Postby smtroop168 » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:26 pm

Actually Hubert your troop did have a choice which was to hold your BOR despite National's policy.

Wagion...interpretations of all the different policies can drive us all crazy. It also gives rise to "sea lawyers" and out of control adults trying to fit the policy to what they want to have happen. That's why I posted that Reading should be a required MB. :lol:


On to the next controversial item!!! :D
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Postby WeeWillie » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:48 pm

Wagion...interpretations of all the different policies can drive us all crazy. It also gives rise to "sea lawyers" and out of control adults trying to fit the policy to what they want to have happen.


The term sea lawyer is fitting since Justin has enlisted in the Marines.

Justin
Try pulling this hper-legal nonsense about your rights with a Drill Sergeant and you will be doing pushups until he is tired of hearing you count them out.

All

When adult leaders resort to hyper-legalities to speed the advancement process we are doing our scouts a diservice. We are teaching them that cleverness is more important than hard work. It also instills in our Scouts a sense of entitlement. We can always rationalize breaking the rules when we benefit from the outcome.

"In addition the chartered organization [rep. (COR)] may serve on the troop committee." SM Handbook, pg 156


Minor Edit: RWSmith
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Postby Hubert » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:10 am

I wasnt trying to resort to this. It is just that I didnt understand it. I was being attacked, so I defended myself acordingly. I read what Wagion posted, on the web site on page 2.

When my troop first got started, we didnt have that many adult leaders. When you took out my mom and step dad, that left 2 com. members, who never go to the meetings or on campiuts. That is not enough to hold a BoR if you go by the book. The adults in my troop got together and pulled from other troops, I thought that was the way it was meant, I didnt no any different, and I dont know if they did either. I was not trying to cause such controversy, sorry all.
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Postby Fibonacci » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:29 am

If I read this correctly, there are very small troops who do not have enough Committee Members to hold a Board of Review. I don't have my Recharter paperwork to look it up, but I think they only ask for two or three Committee Members. What if there is a troop with three Committee Members and one of them is related to the Scout needing a BoR? (This is similar to the situation faced by Hubert.) In this case, I think the solution used by Hubert's troop is excellent ~ "borrow" a trained Scouter from another troop who is familiar with the Scout. This benefits the Scout and perhaps the troop as well, if the "guest" Scouter shares information about his/her troop.

The 2002 printing of the Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures states on p 29.
The review has three purposes:
*To make sure that the work has been learned and completed.
*To check to see what kind of experience the boy is having in his patrol and troop.
*To encourage the Scout to advance to the next rank.

The feedback received from the second objective can help shape the troop, and of course the Scouter who isn't a part of that troop won't really be part of that since it isn't even his/her troop. However, I believe the three purposes can be met by using a guest Scouter.

Without causing more of a debate, I'd like to share a thought that was shared with me years ago by a professional scout staff member (Girl Scout professional, but a professional none the less.) I try to remember this when I am faced with a delicate, different, or new situation.

What is in the best interests of the Scout?
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