Troops That Do not Support the Order

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Postby wagionvigil » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:58 pm

THE FUNNY PART LODGE HAS BEEN A NATIONAL HONOR LODGE THE LAST 6 YEARS.
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Postby scoutaholic » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:14 pm

9009scoutmaster wrote:...
Lodge will only except tapout's from inside council. Summer Camp,
If your troop go out of Council for summer camp, well you can bring them out to camp just to be tapout for the OA....


The tapout is not really a requirement at all. Election and Ordeal is all it takes to become a member of the OA.
I believe the national OA guidelines specify that the ordeal must be done in the home lodge. One cannot go to an out-of-council camp and do ordeal there.

I haven't seen a tap-out in years. We used to have tap-out ceremonies at some distict camps years ago, but I haven't heard of any such thing recently.

Around here, tap-out is not needed. After a boy is elected they just go to the Ordeal.
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Postby pipestone1991 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:41 pm

scoutaholic wrote:
9009scoutmaster wrote:...
Lodge will only except tapout's from inside council. Summer Camp,
If your troop go out of Council for summer camp, well you can bring them out to camp just to be tapout for the OA....


The tapout is not really a requirement at all. Election and Ordeal is all it takes to become a member of the OA.
I believe the national OA guidelines specify that the ordeal must be done in the home lodge. One cannot go to an out-of-council camp and do ordeal there.

I haven't seen a tap-out in years. We used to have tap-out ceremonies at some distict camps years ago, but I haven't heard of any such thing recently.

Around here, tap-out is not needed. After a boy is elected they just go to the Ordeal.


I don't think anything in the handbook says it has to be done, like it does for the Ordeal. Therefore you are correct, you do not even need to have a tapout. they are interesting though. Get a ceremony where you are king of the scouts, then go to the Ordeal where you are the dirt on the ground.
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Postby cballman » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:24 pm

first thing is the OA is an honor to be involved in. Second if you dont like to give back cheerful service then resign your membership. I have been a member for quite a few years. I have to work on most weekends but I have given my time and money to help when I can. Our camp has a list of what needs to be done and what needs to be done quickly. the things I have helped do is at thee bottom of the list. I like to see things done that most people see as slave work. Our lodge takes care of the camp facilitys they try to keep the camp clean and running. yes its hard when nobody shows up to help do anything. I dont care about having my name in lights but when I see something that I have done that makes it easier or makes the camp more beautiful then that is my glory. also to work with the youth of the Lodge and Council makes me proud to be a scout leader.
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Postby wagionvigil » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:31 pm

ANyone that visits Camp Conestoga sees several buildings. The only buolding not built by the lodge is the original dining hall. EVery other structure in the camp was built by the lodge from the foundation up. Our pool is painted each year by the lodge. WHat I am saying is our council does not pay for any construction or maintenance at our camp. The lodge provides that. if it was not for our lodge there would not be a camp.
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Postby WeeWillie » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:04 pm

When my son bridged in 01, I rejoined Boys Scouts after 30 years absence. I quickly learned the meaning of merit badge mill, and sash and dash. Both are results of the entitlement mentality that too often exists within Scouting. My son was chapter chief and chapter secretary. I drove him to elections at almost every troop in our district. I can tell you which troops are merit badge mills and which troops are sash and dashers, because they are one and the same. The following is how a Scoutmaster explained OA.

OA is an organization within Scouting. You get elected by the troop and go on a weekend to set up summer camp. After that you are a member. They have monthly meetings, and other events, but you don't have to go. My son was elected several years ago, did his slave labor, and hasn't been to an OA event since. OA looks real good on your resume.

We need to start tracking troops that produce sash and dashers and devise a method of tying elections to active OA participation. Your Arrowmen don't particiapte, the number of Scouts you can elect is reduced.

A couple of years ago I had an ASM as me to nominate his son to OA. The Scout was 1st Class and in the troop for 11 months. He was one camping day short of 15. When I told him that I wasn't going to he was upset that I wasn't allowing his son the opportunity to be an Arrowman. By the way, dad was Vigil, former Lodge Chief, NOAC and an Eagle. I stuck to my guns and told him to wait for his son to earn OA.

Ignoring the camping requirement is common to sash and dash troops. OA election teams need to verify the camping requirements for each nominee.

OA is Scouting's honor camping society. We have arrowman that can't perform basic scout skills, a characteristic of scouts in merit badge mills. We need to test nominees in basic scout skills before they are allowed to be arrowmen.

There is more, but this has gone on long enough!
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Postby wagionvigil » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:18 pm

Mike the only way to varify is the SM Signature. Now that being said we do run the names thriugh the computer to varify the scout is First class when elected not when tapped. In many caes there were disappointed kids that after the tap out they were told they were not eligible when elected and therfore could not take their ordeal. The SM were required to tell the parents with an OA Adult Adv. Standing there. Need less to say there were many SM's that were taken to task by angry parents. Believe me whe I tell you we only had to do this one season. The Troops got the Hint.
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Postby 9009scoutmaster » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:28 pm

I am all for the OA. I was just trying to give reason that I saw to answer the main question posed by this forum "why some troops do not support the order". I firmly belive that if you are not active in your Lodge and do not pay your lodge dues each year you should not wear the lodge flap are OA sash.

Also I checked the Honor Lodge Requirements and my Lodge has met them. The main problem that I have is Lodge visibality outside of Lodge activities.
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Postby WeeWillie » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:25 pm

Wagionvigil

Interview each candidate either before or after the election. Have them list their camping trips. My experience has been that the Scouts will tell the truth, the problem is with parents and leaders.

My son was Chapter Chief and Chapter Secretary. He knew the sash and dashers and their troops. So did the Chapter Advisor.

Situation - Chapter Advisor to SM. Last year your troop's participation in OA events was 25%. This year you will be allowed to elect ##% of eligible Scouts.

When I was elected to OA, the number of nominees was based on troop enrollment. There is certainly precedent for restricting the number of Scouts the can be elected. I was selected the second time. Somehow my self esteem weathered the disappointment and when I was elected it meant alot to me.
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Postby FrankJ » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:46 pm

Situation - Chapter Advisor to SM. Last year your troop's participation in OA events was 25%. This year you will be allowed to elect ##% of eligible Scouts.


The problem with this is that the OA has rules about eligibility & elections & local chapters must follow the rules. The local chapters are not free to make their own rules on membership. For instance the SM verifies the camping nights. It is not subject to review by the lodge adviser or any other demigod.

The value of the OA is what the individual scouts make of it. I doubt any body outside of scouting know or cares about the OA.
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Postby wagionvigil » Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:45 am

A chapter or Lodge cannot make up their own rules that are contrary to the National OA rules. I do not feel that what weewillie suggest is within something that can be done. It also will not make any impact on the unit.They are not supporting the Lodge now and that does not help. The only thing that will help is a Change of leadership.
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Postby Chief J » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:31 am

I keep reading this thread, and keep hearing the same message in different formats. Communication.

One common problem is the Hatfield vs. Mccoy ie., you made someone in the troop angry 15 years ago, I don't remember who or why, but we are still going to hold a grudge.

Another more commen problem I hear in this thread - OA = slave labor.
This is an area where the Lodge needs to get the word out and promote themselves. Don't get me wrong, I have come home from ceremonial weekends tired and sore from the hard work this chairborne ranger put in, but I felt good about the sore muscles. Not only do we work hard, but we paly hard and have alot of fun and fellowship doing it. I have met and made some great friends who would go to the ends of the earth for you through the OA.

Some of the things I remember as a youth were the impressive and I mean impressive ceremonies. They were phenomenal - all actors on the ceremonies team were a presence to be reckined with. - Tap out ceremonies were preceded by the dance team - the ceremonies team arrived by canoe in an impressive fashion. Tap outs now are well performed, but it is no longer the ceremony of ceremonies. From the tap out through your entire career in scouts was an impressive "thing" to belong to.

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Postby jr56 » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:18 am

True, the biggest thing I miss about the OA is the impressive ceremonies. These days they are pretty lame. Another thing that is not mentioned at elections, or anywhere else, is that a candidate for the order should be the type of person who puts the needs and wants of others before himself.
To that type of person, giving of themselves to better the camp and scouting makes sense. The vast majority of youth today that see nothing but self entitlement, see the OA as "slave labor".
I had a father once tell me that to him the OA seemed like slave labor. I explained to him the mindset that OA members should have. If you don't have that mindset, you don't understand the concept.
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Postby WeeWillie » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:16 pm

I am not suggesting the lodges and chapters adopt their own OA election and awards procedures. This is a national problem and needs a National solution.

The problem isn't communications.

The SM I mentioned knew the aims and methods of OA. He also knew that OA looks good on resumes and thats all that mattered. By the way, his son was one of those exceptional 13 year old Eagle Scouts. He was my predecessor.

My Eagle, OA Vigil, former Lodge Chief, NOAC.... ASM dad certainaly knew the aim and methods of OA. He knew the 15 days camping requirement, but he wanted bragging rights about his barely 11 year old son. By the way, this is the same ASM that did his other son's Bird Study MB work so he could have a 13 year old Eagle.

The problem is the entitlement mentality that exists with too many parents and leaders. OA and Eagle look good on resumes and I want my son to have it. Earning it is another matter.
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Postby wagionvigil » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:34 pm

This will continue until BSA actually puts some teeth in the MB's instead of watering them down again and again. The OA is no exception. When I was Lodge Aviser I attended all 4 districts roundtables at least once a year. I took the Chief of the Year and we spoke. We also told everyone that if the dues are not paid you must remove your flap from your uniform. We also told them that if a boys picture is in the paper for Eagle and they say he was a lodge member and his dues were not paid the lodge would put a retraction in the paper. I did remove a flap at a COH one time. They had been warned and did not believe it would happen. Was I wrong probably but the word got around that the lodge was serious.I was sick and tired of seeing these people wearing the totum of honor and really are not a member. WHat we do now is each troop gets a list of lodge members attached to their troop with their charter. They are aked to collect the dues and forward them with the payment for their charter. This has helped greatly.
Last edited by wagionvigil on Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby OldGreyBear » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:26 pm

redacted
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Re:

Postby Ursus Snorous Roarus » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:37 pm

scoutaholic wrote:Assuming that my son does get elected and goes to the ordeal, I'm not sure there is a positive experience awaiting him in our chapter/lodge or the order.


You need to be the force for better, it's tough when you're already involved in the unit. But get involved NOW and start doing things little things to improve. Soon enough it will pick up steam and others will see what is going on and join in. Before you know it there will be plenty of you working for the betterment of the lodge. It's an uphill battle, but it works! Your son's success may depend upon it.
Last edited by Ursus Snorous Roarus on Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re:

Postby Ursus Snorous Roarus » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:47 pm

Hubert wrote:The boys in my troop were never really interested in it to be honest. I myself was not for a while but after talking with a few members, I am now. I was elected in and Conclave is in a few months.

However, my troop did not wish to go to the OA Callout, since the youth was not interested, the adults did not force us to go. Instead, we worked on advancement back at camp.


Boys are lead by their leaders. If they see adults not interested, why should they be? We expect and encourage a kid to earn his Eagle and he does. But adult leaders don't put the same emphasis on the OA. Scouts can get leadership and experiences in the OA they absolutely cannot get elsewhere. Call Outs should not be optional. You can work on advancement all year at home, come to camp to see the Call Outs.
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Re:

Postby Ursus Snorous Roarus » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:42 pm

scoutaholic wrote:
9009scoutmaster wrote:... Lodge will only except tapout's from inside council. Summer Camp,
If your troop go out of Council for summer camp, well you can bring them out to camp just to be tapout for the OA....

The tapout is not really a requirement at all. Election and Ordeal is all it takes to become a member of the OA.
I haven't seen a tap-out in years. We used to have tap-out ceremonies at some district camps years ago, but I haven't heard of any such thing recently.
Around here, tap-out is not needed. After a boy is elected they just go to the Ordeal.


Sad that your lodge will not include out of council troops at tap outs? Discuss this with your Lodge Advisor to reconsider.
Last edited by Ursus Snorous Roarus on Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Troops That Do not Support the Order

Postby FrankJ » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:00 pm

I think he meant that the lodge can only tap out members from their own council. That is an OA national rule, not a lodge or council rule.
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