Everything's done?

Information to help with the rank of Eagle Scout.

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Re: Everything's done?

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:06 pm

Okay...here's the update

1) Discipline problem...not really a problem...brother was one tossed from SC and Mom pulled both sons out of troop so there was guilt by association.

2) Eagle Project...major problem. Determined that he started EP before any approval signatures. That's a big no-no per the ACPP, EP workbook and also says that on the Eagle Application. Then after approval he made a major scope change (build a 12 step staircase down a slope) but did not go back to his troop or district rep and ask for approval. The scope change occured very closely after he got approval of his original project. So the question is whether that was part of the plan all along but it was easier to get the EP approved without the details. The EBOR was unable to determine how he could have actually executed the change since they were virtually no planning details. A cartoon diagram with little other info like basic materials needed, dimensions, step-by-step instructions etc. was all that was presented in his workbook. Scout offered no real explanation.

Scout was not advanced based on the manner in which his project was carried out.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:39 pm

Good for you and the EB, Matt. I hope a letter is forthcoming to him, making recommendations with a copy to the SM and CC of his new troop. They may have been blindsided, but they signed it and I hope they read it, too!! :?
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby Mrw » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:41 pm

Although I am sure the boy was disappointed, at least he has time to fix the issues. Far better than turning down an 18 year old. That would be a truly harsh lesson.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby evmori » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:39 am

Well done.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:28 pm

Not my idea of a fun night but the integrity of the process is key to the entire program.

Bill...I get to write the letter to him. Got any examples that you could email me?
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby E V Augustine » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:57 pm

smtroop 168,

There really is no template for summarizing the findings leading to denial / postponement of rank. I would recommend that you very carefully document the board's rationale and cite specifics as to how the Scout failed to demonstrate leadership in the execution of his project. Develop a set of specific tasks and a realistic time certain for completion even to the point of a date to reconvene the board. Circulate a draft among the board members and get concurrence. All those agreeing should sign the letter.

If the board's instructions are accepted by the Scout all's well and good. If the Scout appeals rather than comply with the board's instructions, the letter becomes the only written justification for the decision. At the council appeal, district board members should be called to provide information.

If rank is withheld at council and there is an appeal to national you run a high probability of being reversed. Remember, after checking the FOS contributions of those involved the Council Executive will write a letter included with the appeal to national. This letter functionally determines the outcome of the appeal. Do not allow yourself to be deluded into thinking some national committee is convened to consider the matter. It is done by functionaries in Irving, Texas.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby WeeWillie » Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:17 pm

How did the Scout respond to the BoR results? Did he acknowledge that his performance was inadequate. Does he even care? Was there troop adult supervision? Did the Scout actually do the leadership or did mom or dad take over?

What was the Scout's explaination for transferring after the ELSP was perfomed.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby smtroop168 » Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:18 pm

E V Augustine wrote:smtroop 168,

There really is no template for summarizing the findings leading to denial / postponement of rank. I would recommend that you very carefully document the board's rationale and cite specifics as to how the Scout failed to demonstrate leadership in the execution of his project. Develop a set of specific tasks and a realistic time certain for completion even to the point of a date to reconvene the board. Circulate a draft among the board members and get concurrence. All those agreeing should sign the letter.

If the board's instructions are accepted by the Scout all's well and good. If the Scout appeals rather than comply with the board's instructions, the letter becomes the only written justification for the decision. At the council appeal, district board members should be called to provide information.

If rank is withheld at council and there is an appeal to national you run a high probability of being reversed. Remember, after checking the FOS contributions of those involved the Council Executive will write a letter included with the appeal to national. This letter functionally determines the outcome of the appeal. Do not allow yourself to be deluded into thinking some national committee is convened to consider the matter. It is done by functionaries in Irving, Texas.


I was good with everything except when you brought up the FOS. If that is the criteria for a SE putting his name on a letter where rules were not followed, then shame on him.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby smtroop168 » Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:34 pm

WeeWillie wrote:How did the Scout respond to the BoR results? Did he acknowledge that his performance was inadequate. Does he even care? Was there troop adult supervision? Did the Scout actually do the leadership or did mom or dad take over?

What was the Scout's explaination for transferring after the ELSP was perfomed.


1. Stoic
2. Not really
3. Not clear
4. Where? at the EP - had 2 deep leadership
5. Both Mom and Dad were there...based on his Carrying out the Project write up, it was really hard to tell
6. He felt Troop wouldn't give him a fair shake given his brother was tossed from camp so Mom decided to change troops.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:28 am

Last night our CAC appeal board agreed with his Blame the Adults and take no personal accountability defense and awarded him Eagle rank.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:18 pm

That really sucks (sorry!). I had one reversed when parents threatened to sue the council and me. Northeast Region came down and told out SE to "make it go away!" They did by reversing our decision and that SE is now employed by National! BTW, a few weeks later the new "Eagle" was arrested for breaking in and entering. Need I say more?!!
Last edited by Bill Pitcher on Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby wagionvigil » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:18 pm

Bill Pitcher wrote:That reallu sucks (sorry!). I had one reversed when parents threatened to sue the council and me. Northeast Region came down and told out SE to "make it go away!" They did by reversing our decision and that SE is now employed by National! BTW, a few weeks later the new "Eagle" was arrested for breaking in and entering. Need I say more?!!

Did you contact National to have is Eagle revoked?
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby evmori » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:15 pm

smtroop168 wrote:Last night our CAC appeal board agreed with his Blame the Adults and take no personal accountability defense and awarded him Eagle rank.


A letter of displeasure should be sent to the CAC and National regarding this.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:01 pm

Once I see their rationale, I'll go from there.

My main concern is given who was running the appeal board, is that no due diligence was done as required by the ACPP with regard to the statements made by the scout in his appeal letter.

"Upon initial receipt of an appeal, the district and the council advancement committee charged with hearing the initial appeal shall provide for a prompt review to determine the facts. All parties must be interviewed or written statements obtained."

None of the scout's previous unit leaders were contacted. They have taken issue with the statements made by the scout.

The EBOR members were not asked to comment on his letter where he insinuates we were out ot get him.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:37 pm

wagionvigil wrote:Did you contact National to have is Eagle revoked?


Wanted to . . . but SE didn't want to chance another law suit. Said to "let it go!" This was about 10 years ago, now.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby jr56 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:22 pm

Unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident. I have also had the opportunity to witness professional scouters caving in to pressure and not doing the right thing just to try to make the problem go away.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:47 pm

Sometimes you need to remind the professionals that they need to uphold the Scout Oath and Law just like the scouts and leaders are required to do.
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