Everything's done?

Information to help with the rank of Eagle Scout.

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Re: Everything's done?

Postby evmori » Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:39 pm

Still way too many unanswered questions.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby E V Augustine » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:35 am

This comment may be moot as it has been indicated the subject Scout's board is scheduled.

Given that there seem to be a number of open questions regarding the project, and by inference Scout spirit, it may have been more efficient from a district advancement perspective to have the Scout appeal for a board of review while still registered in his old troop. The hearing is not a board of review and it provides an opportunity for involved/interested parties to provide information which should address all open questions. If granted an Eagle Board of Review, the board has only to determine if the Scout demonstrated leadership during the execution of his project.

The added step has the benefit of hopefully avoiding an appeal for rank or making the appearance of a rubber stamp for a forum shopper.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:45 pm

evmori wrote:Still way too many unanswered questions.


Amen. There are more requirements to meet for Eagle besides an EP. sm168, you say there were "major changes?" Why was that? How do you decide on "active", "scout spirit", "POR", etc., etc., without talking to the former SM? how does the new SM sign off without knowing ANYTHING about the above? All of the requirements have to be satisfied, not just #5.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby FrankJ » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:01 pm

If the troop removed the scout, then they should have notified the council to remove him from their roster. If the scout just transferred, then it should be up to the troop that he transferred into to investigate a little bit before recommending him for an EBOR. In any case the scout should be prepare to explain all this in his EBOR.

Like it or not, we do not get a vote.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:46 pm

Right, we don't get a vote. . . in this case. But as a DAC Eagle Chairman, and having passed 196 Eagle Scouts at their EBoR in my tenure so far, something isn't right here. As mentioned above, collect ALL the facts first. Just because the Scout wants an EBoR doesn't mean he gets it right away. Have someone from the old troop sit on the EBoR so that the board can attest to his activeness, POR, etc. How else would you know? He hasn't been in the new troop long enough to establish ANY of this. How could the SM and CC of the new troop sign off on them? IMPOSSIBLE!
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby FrankJ » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:30 pm

I am assuming the local people know all of this. :) And I do agree the local people need to find out the whole story.

I agree that if a scout shows up with everything "done", you should look deeper than initials in the handbook. But if all requirements are done, you don't get to do more than verify them by the rules which in a case like would mean talking to the old troop. You certainly do not get to make them redo their eagle project, assuming he completed it with the proper leadership. But, making a lot of assumptions here, I don't see the old SM signing off on scout spirit & SM conference in this case. As a new SM, I would want to get to know the scout before sign off on these.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby smtroop168 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:23 pm

Bill/Frank J/Ed...clearly this is the biggest mess I've had in my time doing EP/EBORs. I like all your suggestions and will continue to pursue any other info I can get prior to the EBOR that would help us answer your questions. We're contacting the prior troop, the summer camp director, the EP sponsor and discussing it between the DAC members. Thanks Matt
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby razor_strop » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:35 am

smtroop168 wrote:...but should he get a free pass for being kicked out of summer camp and heading to a new troop for cover?


I'd say getting kicked out of summer camp was the punishment for the behavior. Anything after that might fall under 'piling on', and seems to go against the idea of providing an environment where a boy can make and learn from his mistakes.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby wagionvigil » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:16 am

razor_strop wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:...but should he get a free pass for being kicked out of summer camp and heading to a new troop for cover?


I'd say getting kicked out of summer camp was the punishment for the behavior. Anything after that might fall under 'piling on', and seems to go against the idea of providing an environment where a boy can make and learn from his mistakes.

It all depends upon what he did. Sorry in some cases a scout does not get a second chance
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:20 pm

wagionvigil wrote:
razor_strop wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:...but should he get a free pass for being kicked out of summer camp and heading to a new troop for cover?


I'd say getting kicked out of summer camp was the punishment for the behavior. Anything after that might fall under 'piling on', and seems to go against the idea of providing an environment where a boy can make and learn from his mistakes.

It all depends upon what he did. Sorry in some cases a scout does not get a second chance


Sorry, but it seems to me that everyone is assuming reasons why this Scout, and others, were sent home from Summer Camp, when we have absolutely no idea what the real reasons were.

We don't know that he got anything resembling a "free pass".

We don't know that he is using his new Troop for "cover". We don't know what he did, or did not, tell his new SM.

It also seems to me that you are all assuming his new SM is some kind of no brain, idiot, pushover, who does not care, and will sign off on anything just to get it done.

We don't really know anything.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:08 pm

nuts4scouts wrote:It also seems to me that you are all assuming his new SM is some kind of no brain, idiot, pushover, who does not care, and will sign off on anything just to get it done.

I think you've misread everything here. We were ALL suggesting that the parties involved find out ALL of the facts before rushing into a 12/15/10 EBoR. It can be done by then and it shoould. BTW, something pretty BAD must have happened to get kicked out of any Scout Camp. Was it something that is NOT becoming of an Eagle Scout? I think SMtroop168 is trying to find out. And, he should. We are not "piling on" anything additional here. However, if his behavior needs addressing, then waiting until he has proved himself worthy of the Eagle Award is warranted (as per Req. #1 and #2). Since he is only 16, he can show that he is, with time to spare. Since the old SM did NOT sign off on the application and EP, something is amiss here.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby razor_strop » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:46 pm

Bill Pitcher wrote:We are not "piling on" anything additional here.


I respectfully disagree. If he was asked to leave summer camp for a behavior problem, then unless there are other legal repercussions being persued through law enforcement channels, the punishment for the poor behavior has already been meted out, and hopefully the lesson has been learned. That episode is in the past. If he no longer exhibits behavior problems, then it's smooth sailing. If more behavior problems crop up now, then the adult leaders should deal with those new issues.

I don't believe Scouting should be an environment where each "level" gets to extract its pound of flesh for poor behavior ("vintage" folks here may recall the classic paradigm of getting in trouble at school, then getting in even more trouble at home for the same episode). The Scout already missed out on summer camp, so should he now be on "the watch list" for advancement? Certainly, with all the moving and such this SMC should be pretty thorough, but I read Eagle Requirement #2 as seeing how the Scout lives his life, which consists of a heck of a lot more than the snapshot of a week long summer camp, or even the hour/hour and a half weekly troop meeting; that's why the requirement talks about references that probably have a much better picture of the Scout's daily conduct than a unit leader.

I guess I'm more oriented to giving the Scout all the opportunities he needs to learn, grow and show his personal progress, rather than making him excel at each "gate" to prove his worthiness. So long as he completes each requirement, he's earned the rank.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby FrankJ » Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:33 pm

Speaking as some one who has sent a scout home from summer camp... (The scout went on to earn his eagle scout rank.) I do not think any body here is piling on. Whether or not a single summer camp behavior has permanent repercussions depends on the behavior. Also it would depend on if it is part of a larger pattern.

This brings up a deeper question. (maybe worthy of a different thread.) Is there behavior that would keep a scout from earning the eagle rank, but not bad enough to ask him to leave scouting? Even if he completed all the book requirements? Maybe even has a great eagle project?
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby WeeWillie » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:25 am

Is this the young man that was kicked out of summer camp for stealing from the camp store while a staff member?

Employers and college admissions officials make hiring and admission decisions based on an applicant being an Eagle Scout. Would you give your unqualified recommendation in a reference letter? If the answer is no, then why recommend him for Eagle Scout?
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby evmori » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:22 am

WeeWillie wrote:Is this the young man that was kicked out of summer camp for stealing from the camp store while a staff member?

Employers and college admissions officials make hiring and admission decisions based on an applicant being an Eagle Scout. Would you give your unqualified recommendation in a reference letter? If the answer is no, then why recommend him for Eagle Scout?



There is no piling on. It really depends on what the Scout did to get home from summer camp. If it's what WeeWillie is questioning, that is a lot more serious than getting sent home for pantsing someone.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby razor_strop » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:34 am

Actually, yes I would make the recommendation, because a) if someone bases their hiring decision solely on someone being an Eagle Scout, they need to more closely examine their hiring criteria (I think we all know of adult Eagle Scouts that make little effort to live up to the ideal), b) I don't view rank advancement as a carrot and stick teaching technique (you better do x, y, and z or I won't sign off on Scout Spirit), and c) glass houses, gentlemen. Perhaps I'm more fallible than most, but I know I've fallen, and continue to fall short of living up to the full measure of the Scout Oath and Law from time to time. Thus, I try to be a bit more forgiving of others' shortcomings. After all, in the end we're talking about a Boy Scout rank here (albeit an important one), not confirming a Supreme Court Justice, granting a security clearance or naming a Pope.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:09 pm

Razor_strop, I think you have a different idea of what an Eagle Scout is and what our Country and communities expect of them. As evmori said earlier and what most of us here suscribe to, "too many unanswered questions". We have suggested that smtroop168 look into it more and find out what happened, the rest is speculation until that happens.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby razor_strop » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:18 pm

Bill Pitcher wrote:Razor_strop, I think you have a different idea of what an Eagle Scout is and what our Country and communities expect of them.


Perhaps, but I'm comfortable that my view coincides with BSA's vision, aims and methods, and rightly gives the benefit of the doubt and support to the Scout to succeed.
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:44 pm

FrankJ wrote:This brings up a deeper question. (maybe worthy of a different thread.) Is there behavior that would keep a scout from earning the eagle rank, but not bad enough to ask him to leave scouting? Even if he completed all the book requirements? Maybe even has a great eagle project?


Hazing and Causing Grave Physical harm to another scout come to mind
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Re: Everything's done?

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:47 pm

smtroop168 wrote:
FrankJ wrote:This brings up a deeper question. (maybe worthy of a different thread.) Is there behavior that would keep a scout from earning the eagle rank, but not bad enough to ask him to leave scouting? Even if he completed all the book requirements? Maybe even has a great eagle project?


Hazing and Causing Grave Physical harm to another scout come to mind

That would do it!
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