Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:22 am

Billiken wrote:Unless something has changed in the last six months at the Cleveland Council Service Center, the staff (Rose, Shirley, etc.) will refuse to accept an Eagle Application unless five (5) reference letters are included.


E V Augustine wrote:The process utilized by the Greater Cleveland Council is as follows:

The Scout asks the person for their reference and lists the name, sometimes with contact information, on the rank application. The Scout hands the referrer a stamped envelope addressed to the troop advancement chair asking them to forward the letter in that envelope. The letters are received by the troop advancement chair and assembled with other elements of the Eagle package for submittal to council.

The council service center validates the ranks and merit badges, then checks for completeness. If the package is complete and correct the Council Advancement Chair is contacted by by e-mail. That gentleman comes into the service center to review the submittal and releases the package to the district chair for review and scheduling the board.


Thanks,

Eric V. Augustine
Advancement and Recognition Chair
Dover Rockport District
Greater Cleveland Council



You beat me to it...he never did answer this issue.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:28 am

DadScout wrote:OK, since my son is just going through the process I'll put out what happens in our Council

-9/17 - Submitted filled out Eagle application and a short desctription (2 liner)of the project and hrs spent. They apparently ask so they can keep a running record of hours to the community and show what the Scouts have done. We gave the info for 6 references. We were told by the SM to make sure these people know they will get a letter from Council.

-9/24 - Mom and Dad gets the Ref letter to fill out, it's a one page thing with 5 questions about the Scout and 5 choices for answers (multiple choice) and a section for free commentary. SM told us that when this comes we should check with the others to make sure they got it. Council likes to have 4 of the 6 returned but will let it pass with less.

-10/15 Council checked the records and found my son had not done two MBs. Actually they were done but the paperwork/badges were picked up at a neighbor council and not recorded to ScoutNet yet. They asked my son if he has the blue cards, he scanned them over. IF he did not have the blue cards they said they would have went back to the unit for verification.

- 11/3 We hear everythings in order, the Dist Eagle Board meeting is the next day when SM gets the ok to set up EBoR

- 11/16 EBoR should happen. SM likes to have Village Mayor sit on it and to not disturb him we normally schedule the EBoR just before Village meetings. Scout and Parents have no objections to the delay from 11/3 to 11/16 . At least two members of the Dist Eagle Board will sit on the BoR.

So from start to finish it will be 2 months. I'll note that during this our short staffed Council was doing Fall Recruitment, Fall Popcorn Fundraiser, and a Council wide Centennial Jambo. So all in all I was OK with it. In fact I told my son when he put in the paperwork to expect the BoR in the middle of Nov.

What did my Council add - The short description they like to use for publicity and they like to have 4/6 references returned before releasing the application back to the District Eagle Board. However, they will release it without 4.

Since someone will ask - he turns 18 in Jan '11



9/17...that info is on the Eagle Application if you're using the current version. Did you have to turn in his ES Project Book?

10/15...this took way too long...council should check this when they accept the application (maybe being shorthanded contributed but if they had time to send out the letters, they had time to check the MBs)

Nice to have the Mayor sit on EBORs but I don't think he would want to inordinately delay because of him.

So...I can see this could have been tightened up by at least one month. Hope all goes well tomorrow.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:24 pm

Hey..while we're picking on Cleveland :wink: and not 100% on topic, can Eric tell us how the EP approval process is done too?

I think our CAC is looking a a "New Birth" of our council process as well.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby DadScout » Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:45 pm

smtroop168 wrote:
9/17...that info is on the Eagle Application if you're using the current version. Did you have to turn in his ES Project Book?

10/15...this took way too long...council should check this when they accept the application (maybe being shorthanded contributed but if they had time to send out the letters, they had time to check the MBs)

Nice to have the Mayor sit on EBORs but I don't think he would want to inordinately delay because of him.

So...I can see this could have been tightened up by at least one month. Hope all goes well tomorrow.


You're correct on the current ver of the application. I think the Council's request is a holdover from the old application that someone forgot to take off the list. We submitted even though it was on the app. The ES project book was turned into the Dist Eagle Board member assigned to work with my son. He gave my son a receipt for it and that reciept got turned in. When turning it in the Council stamped "received" on everything, made a copy and gave the copy back to my son.

I can see a bit of time between the submission of the app and checking the MB's and stuff, but you're correct there was a bit of a delay.

Since the Village has a standing meeting every two weeks we never have to wait too long. He's asked that we defer to other Village officials whenever he's not available. There's never been an issue getting the EBoR scheduled timely.

Thanks for the well wishes, if I could just get my son to relax. I can't get him to realize that the end goal for the members of this EBoR is that he actually gets the Eagle. They're not out to grill him.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby Billiken » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:05 pm

smtroop168 wrote:Hey..while we're picking on Cleveland :wink: and not 100% on topic, can Eric tell us how the EP approval process is done too?


In my district within CLE, the Life Scout discusses his ESLP idea with his Scoutmaster or unit designee.
If they agree in principal with the idea/concept of the ESLP the SM then calls the DAC to make sure it's okay for the Scout to proceed with planning the ESLP. ("Mr. DAC, is the following idea/project acceptable for an ESLP?")

The Life Scout can then start planning or writting up the ESLP (in the workbook).

Once the project is completely "written up", with the 3 signatures (benefiting org and 2 from the troop), the DAC then meets with the Scout to review the ESLP. There may be an additional meeting if the DAC finds anything lacking in the ESLP workbook.
Last edited by Billiken on Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby Mrw » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:10 pm

Billiken wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:Hey..while we're picking on Cleveland :wink: and not 100% on topic, can Eric tell us how the EP approval process is done too?


In my district within in CLE, the Life Scout discusses his ESLP idea with his Scoutmaster or unit designee.
If they agree in principal with the idea/concept of the ESLP we then call the DAC for his approval.

The Life Scout can then start planning or writting up the ESLP (in the workbook).

Once the project is completely "written up", with the 3 signatures (benefiting org and 2 from the troop), the DAC then meets with the Scout to review the ESLP. There may be an additional meeting if the DAC finds anything lacking in the ESLP workbook.


I am in the next district over and we do it the same way. A boy who has a good plan will generally get his approval from the district in one meeting with the DAC.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby razor_strop » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:46 pm

While I understand the intent, isn't getting the DAC's approval twice sort of adding to the ESLSP approval process?
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby Billiken » Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:55 pm

razor_strop wrote:While I understand the intent, isn't getting the DAC's approval twice sort of adding to the ESLSP approval process?


The first "approval" is (at least in our troop) a phone call to the DAC, just to confirm that the idea for the ESLP is okay.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:02 pm

Billiken wrote:
razor_strop wrote:While I understand the intent, isn't getting the DAC's approval twice sort of adding to the ESLSP approval process?


The first "approval" is (at least in our troop) a phone call to the DAC, just to confirm that the idea for the ESLP is okay.



Who calls? I've asked lots of times "Does the Project meet the criteria of a qualifying project as shown in your Workbook?" When I get a blank response, I know we're off to a bad start. Also had a number of qualifying EPs that fell apart in the write up phase.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby evmori » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:58 pm

Well EV, you are requiring the letters of recommendation (that are not required) be submitted with the Eagle application. Since these letters are not required, you policy is adding to the requirements and should be stopped immediately.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby E V Augustine » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:22 pm

Ed,

So we are clear, the policy is that of the Greater Cleveland Council. I addressed comments posted here in order to clarify the procedure followed from the perspective of one who serves in the district and council. I've asked the forum to provide a description of how the references are handled in other councils with few responses and fewer specifics.

Collecting the references after submittal moves a task requiring two weeks or more that could run concurrently with other tasks, to one that lengthens time to scheduling a board or is not attempted or completed for the sake of expediency. As I wrote earlier, the system employed here works.

Thanks,
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby Bill Pitcher » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:37 am

In the Rip Van Winkle Council, the EC turns in his report and application to the CSS. The registrar then sends out a request for reference form. We then wait for about 2 weeks. Most are in by then. The paperwork is then turned over to the appropriate DAC member from the EC's area. Sometimes the registrar sends out a second request for reference, or the DAC member asks for it via the provided e-mail, or we call. Remember, it's the council's job to aquire them, NOT THE EC's! The DAC member meets with the EC and his parent(s) at the job site for final viewing of the project or results (if appropriate). Then, the EBoR is scheduled at an agreeded upon site (usually troop meeting place) and time. Takes about a month to hold the EBoR from the submission of the app. and report.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby evmori » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:02 am

EV,

In my council, the DAC request them via the unit and they are to be brought to the EBOR. If they don't ask, they don't get them.

The problem with your system is you are requiring something that isn't required. Yes the Advancement Committee can determine how the references are checked but they can't require letters be submitted with the application or the application won't be accepted. That is a direct violation of National policy.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:07 am

Our council, old and new, follows BSA policy. Scout provides names and contact info on his EA, unit and DAC make sure they are back for the EBOR. We probably have some scouters that would leap over the counter and march into the SE if they had to bring the letters into the office with the EA, especially if it was just any 5 random people that didn't have to match the EA.

Bill Pitcher wrote:The DAC member meets with the EC and his parent(s) at the job site for final viewing of the project or results (if appropriate).


Bill.....That's is an interesting twist. I kinda like it but I'm not sure if that's adding to any requirements since the DAC doesn't have anywhere they sign off on the back end of a project. It might be more useful if the DAC was onsite when the project was in process to see how the scout led his EP. Going out and looking at 6 finished picnic tables in a pavillion wouldn't tell me much about how the tables got there. Matt
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby Bill Pitcher » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:51 am

Matt,

You're right, and I (we) do go out and make a couple of visits as well as the finished project. We started this about 10 - 12 years ago when a DAC in a neighboring state to both of us, had an Eagle candidate fake the whole project thing, from start to finish.

I know, a Scout is "Trustworthy", etc., etc. And the details of this were discussed in another forum line somewhere on this site. But it happened, and the additional requirement is on us to go out 3-4 times to view the progress. It's what we do here. The candidates don't mind . . . they get to take (and show) a little more pride in what they've accomplished, as do his parents. If they can't make it . . . no big deal. WE go out anyway to make sure the project was completed, and he did what he had proposed to do. I have met some pretty happy and IMPRESSED project sponsors! I find THAT pretty cool!

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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:55 pm

Bill Pitcher wrote:Matt,

You're right, and I (we) do go out and make a couple of visits as well as the finished project. We started this about 10 - 12 years ago when a DAC in a neighboring state to both of us, had an Eagle candidate fake the whole project thing, from start to finish.

I know, a Scout is "Trustworthy", etc., etc. And the details of this were discussed in another forum line somewhere on this site. But it happened, and the additional requirement is on us to go out 3-4 times to view the progress. It's what we do here. The candidates don't mind . . . they get to take (and show) a little more pride in what they've accomplished, as do his parents. If they can't make it . . . no big deal. WE go out anyway to make sure the project was completed, and he did what he had proposed to do. I have met some pretty happy and IMPRESSED project sponsors! I find THAT pretty cool!

Bill


Wish I had the time for visiting, especially when you get projects like I have now where it looks like he actually started the project before it was approved by the district. I inherited this one because the scout transferred troops after being sent home from summer camp. Why do these follow me around!!!!
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby wagionvigil » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:57 pm

smtroop168 wrote:
Bill Pitcher wrote:Matt,

You're right, and I (we) do go out and make a couple of visits as well as the finished project. We started this about 10 - 12 years ago when a DAC in a neighboring state to both of us, had an Eagle candidate fake the whole project thing, from start to finish.

I know, a Scout is "Trustworthy", etc., etc. And the details of this were discussed in another forum line somewhere on this site. But it happened, and the additional requirement is on us to go out 3-4 times to view the progress. It's what we do here. The candidates don't mind . . . they get to take (and show) a little more pride in what they've accomplished, as do his parents. If they can't make it . . . no big deal. WE go out anyway to make sure the project was completed, and he did what he had proposed to do. I have met some pretty happy and IMPRESSED project sponsors! I find THAT pretty cool!

Bill


Wish I had the time for visiting, especially when you get projects like I have now where it looks like he actually started the project before it was approved by the district. I inherited this one because the scout transferred troops after being sent home from summer camp. Why do these follow me around!!!!

If he was sent home from summer camp why di the council not boot him?
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:00 pm

I asked the same question with no real good answer. I think the Troop was happy he left and didn't have to or want to deal with it. Not sure about the Troop he went to yet.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby Mrw » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:56 pm

Bill Pitcher wrote:Matt,

You're right, and I (we) do go out and make a couple of visits as well as the finished project. We started this about 10 - 12 years ago when a DAC in a neighboring state to both of us, had an Eagle candidate fake the whole project thing, from start to finish.

Bill


We had a scout a couple years ago who did his project in Singapore. That could make for a nice field trip for you!
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:54 pm

Mrw wrote:
Bill Pitcher wrote:Matt,

You're right, and I (we) do go out and make a couple of visits as well as the finished project. We started this about 10 - 12 years ago when a DAC in a neighboring state to both of us, had an Eagle candidate fake the whole project thing, from start to finish.

Bill


We had a scout a couple years ago who did his project in Singapore. That could make for a nice field trip for you!



I'm in! I can pick up 5 reference letters while I'm there. :P
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