Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby E V Augustine » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:49 am

I would be interested in hearing how other councils represented by the posters here manage obtaining the recommendations for an Eagle candidate, and a correlation with time from package submittal to council to board appearance for that process.

The process utilized by the Greater Cleveland Council is as follows:

The Scout asks the person for their reference and lists the name, sometimes with contact information, on the rank application. The Scout hands the referrer a stamped envelope addressed to the troop advancement chair asking them to forward the letter in that envelope. The letters are received by the troop advancement chair and assembled with other elements of the Eagle package for submittal to council.

The council service center validates the ranks and merit badges, then checks for completeness. If the package is complete and correct the Council Advancement Chair is contacted by by e-mail. That gentleman comes into the service center to review the submittal and releases the package to the district chair for review and scheduling the board.

In nearly seven years as Dover Rockport District Advancement Chair I have rarely seen this process take more than 7 business days from submittal to my home mail box. Depending on availability the Scout's Eagle Board of Review is held within a month of submittal.

The following is my thought and does not represent the position of the Greater Cleveland Council.

With slight modification the process could be made technically compliant. Dragoon the troop advancement chairs and Eagle coordinators into the Council advancement committee assigning them the task of obtaining their Eagle candidate's recommendations by any means anticipated by the national advancement committee policies and procedures. This task may be initiated either before or after the rank application is submitted. The results would be forwarded to the district advancement chair, hopefully referencing the Scout's name and unit number. In the event they are unsuccessful in obtaining any or all recommendations in a time frame they determine appropriate they simply document lack of success in completing the assigned task and communicate it to the district advancement chair. The Scout then proceeds to his board.

Thanks,

Eric V. Augustine
Advancement and Recognition Chair
Dover Rockport District
Greater Cleveland Council
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby wagionvigil » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:14 pm

The Scout hands the referrer a stamped envelope addressed to the troop advancement chair asking them to forward the letter in that envelope. The letters are received by the troop advancement chair and assembled with other elements of the Eagle package for submittal to council.


Adding to the requirements! Nothing like this is required. All they MUST do is list the names etc on the application Anything thing else is adding.
Go by the application that is all you have to do. Period!
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby E V Augustine » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:32 pm

wagionvigil,

From The 12 Steps from Life to Eagle, "The candidate should have contacted individuals listed as references before including their names on the application." And of course I cherry picked the quotation.

To my original query, how does your council manage collection of the references? Do you have a sense as to how long that process takes?

Thanks,

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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby wagionvigil » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:48 pm

In our council once the application is sent to the service center and it is reviewed for correctness it is then sent back to the district Eagle Advancement Chair. I have had EBOR set up in less than a week. Once the application went to the service center on Monday and we had the EBOR on Friday.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby E V Augustine » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:09 pm

Not a bad turnaround time. Was the Scout a short timer about 75 days past his 18th birthday?

The process I described consistently accommodates 40 to 50 Eagle candidates per year at district Eagle Boards of Review in the time frame I mentioned. It would take a telephone boiler room in the district to make five contacts per applicant for the number we see. That's why should the existing process be modified I would be a strong proponent of the alternative presented in my original post.

Thanks,

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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby wagionvigil » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:28 pm

Nope, about normal for turn around here The scout was 15
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:08 pm

I think what the posters are trying to figure out is what Biliken and MRW are saying. The letters (completed???) have to be submitted with the application or just the forms? And no one cares if the refs on the Eagle App are the same as the letters sent out?

MRW: The thing about the Eagle reference letters that Cleveland wants, is that they expect 5 letters submitted with the application. I have offered to request them for our boys as has our CC. Some like that and some do it themselves. The way they look at it though is five letters, not five letters from those references.

BILIKEN: Greater Cleveland Council will not accept an Eagle Application without 5 letters of recommendation attached.
Blatant violation of policy.

Their arguement is that there is a clause in the ESLP book (section 6) regarding the collection of the letters: "...council will determine the methed used to contact." Their "method" is that the Scout bring/submit the letters.

WVBEAVER05 Forgot one sentence in his #33088 quote...If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references.


I'm in the New Birth of Freedom Council....I think that's why they named it that...so we can have a New Birth of Policy Reviews :o is moving to using the 12 steps verbatim as their Eagle process. They haven't figured out #6 and #7 yet. :roll:
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:33 pm

wagionvigil wrote:
The Scout hands the referrer a stamped envelope addressed to the troop advancement chair asking them to forward the letter in that envelope. The letters are received by the troop advancement chair and assembled with other elements of the Eagle package for submittal to council.


Adding to the requirements! Nothing like this is required. All they MUST do is list the names etc on the application Anything thing else is adding.
Go by the application that is all you have to do. Period!


Actually, it is not adding to the requirements. Also from the 12 Steps -

If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references.


The following is where they are adding to requirements -

Greater Cleveland Council will not accept an Eagle Application without 5 letters of recommendation attached.


Again from the 12 Steps -

The candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the reference or submit other reference names. A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.


If the Greater Cleveland Council drops the requirement that they will not accept an application there should be no problem.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby wagionvigil » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:54 pm

Take the application and read it. It does not say anything about letters and the parents will pick up on that. I do not care about what is in 33088 if it is not spelled out on the application it does not exist to a parent or a scout. Unless you want to sit down scout and parents and spell it out and show them in writing.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:18 pm

wagionvigil wrote:Take the application and read it. It does not say anything about letters and the parents will pick up on that. I do not care about what is in 33088 if it is not spelled out on the application it does not exist to a parent or a scout. Unless you want to sit down scout and parents and spell it out and show them in writing.


I worry less about the parents (Helicopter parents excluded) than the bonehead unit leaders who want to "make a statement about the scout" by not signing the Eagle App. :roll: Parents and scouts just want to make sure at that point that he makes Eagle. Helping them to the finish line by showing them the 12 steps isn't too hard given the BSA has placed the 12 steps on the back page of the ESP WB and they have to use that form to do requirement 5 on the application.

The BSA recently added the reference's email address to the Eagle application. Seems like they did that to make the reference contact easier but I don't know how many councils use it to get feedback to the references.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby RWSmith » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:29 pm

Firstly, thank you, Eric, for joining our forums (as well as providing us some info "from the source").

Second, and this may (or may not) have some bearing on this thread... There was a time when it was perfectly acceptable for the ES candidate to procure and produce the reference letters. But, as they say, "That was then; this is now." While this may not be the reason, here is a plausible justification for the change:

  • Back in the day... there was no internet; nor easy access to laser or color printers. While the ability to fake a reference letter was possible, it was highly unlikely. And, three or more?
  • Today, however... letterhead can be easily faked; ink colors and fonts can be changed; and, you can cut-and-paste entire letters of recommendation from a simple search... tweak... print... done.

My point is, leaders sometimes (for various reasons) cling to "old-school" methods.

Third, I have taken the liberty of breaking down the following ESRA "references" procedures from the ACP&P into bullet statements and annotating my personal opinions:

ACP&P wrote:The 12 Steps From Life to Eagle

The following 12 steps have been outlined to ensure a smooth procedure for the Scout, the unit leadership, the local council, and the volunteers who are to conduct the board of review. Share these steps with each Eagle candidate so that he can fully understand the procedure that must be followed by the Scout, the district, and the council. (These steps, including sub-steps, must be completed in order, by the party directed to do so.)

Step 6. When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The Scout shall have listed six references (five if no employer, and parent if no organized religious association). (Note: For obvious reasons, the council may not "jump the gun" (i.e., attempt to contact/collect references) until AFTER the ESRA has been submitted to the CSS by the candidate. "Persons" do not become "references" until the candidate has actually submitted them, as such, (on his ESRA) to the CSS.)

The candidate should have contacted individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. (Obviously, this is a matter of "etiquette" and this should always be explained to every candidate (i.e., by the SM or other adult) as to why it's so important to ask a reference, in advance, if s/he would mind being listed as a reference, if contacted... be it for a job, school, ESR, whatever.)

  1. The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the references on the Eagle Scout Rank Application, either by letter, form, or telephone checklist. (The council determines the method or methods to be used.) (This does not mean the council can modify any other procedures -- it only means "the council determines the method or methods to be used" as to HOW "the council advancement committee or its designee" chooses to contact the references... namely, locally-generated letter, form, telephone checklist, or some combination thereof. Note: "Designee" = adults, not the candidate.)

  2. If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references. (While the candidate "may be asked" by the CAC/DAC to do this, he can not be expected, imposed upon, or required to do so. Period. This is strictly optional, and limited in scope (as noted above and below), to provide the candidate an opportunity to (personally) "deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references", if the candidate can conveniently (and is willing to) do so, as a matter of convenience to the CAC. Also as noted above and below, this does not, in any way, absolve the CAC of its sole responsibility for contacting the references. And even this method, if used, may not begin until AFTER the candidate has submitted his ESRA to the CSS and its contents have been verified.) Furthermore:

    1. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between people listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee. (The candidate should never, ever be personally involved in handling any correspondence FROM a reference. This specific policy, especially, as well as all the procedures noted herein, are designed to ensure the integrity of the entire process.)
    2. If the initial reference letter or form is not returned to the council in a timely manner, the council advancement committee must make direct contact with the reference(s) listed on the Eagle Scout Rank Application on its own, by follow-up letter, phone contact, or other methods as it chooses.
    3. The candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the reference or submit other reference names.
    4. A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.

Step 7. .... Reference checks that are forwarded with the application are confidential, and their contents are not to be disclosed to any person who is not a member of the board of review. (Especially the candidate.)

Let me ask this:

    Is every ES candidate in every other council required to submit five letters of reference with his ESRA?

      If so, then there's no problem, is there?

      If not, then no matter how you try to slice-and-dice it, national advancement policy is infringed.

Sure; every council has latitude (in some areas) regarding local procedures; but, no local policy/procedure may infringe upon national advancement policies... we all know that. The correct procedures are outlined in the current ACP&P.

We also know that, unfortunately, this thread is just one example of many similar instances where a DAC/CAC continues to mis-apply national advancement policies... and most frequently, it involves one of two things:
  • making the ESLSP or ESRA harder for the Scout (e.g., expecting Eagle projects to be 100 hours), or
  • cutting corners to make it easier for the adults (e.g., this topic).

Whether we like it or not, reference letters are not a requirement for advancement to Eagle. Period. While listing references is a requirement for advancement, contacting them rests solely on the adults. (Another) period.

The ACP&P is written for the adults. As the adults, whether or not we agree with national advancement policies (or safety policies, for that matter), it's still our duty to ensure they're applied as equally as humanly possible, in every council. If you don't like (or agree with) current national advancement policy, then get it changed... but, in the meantime, COMPLY.

BTW, if we can't get district- and council-level advancement committees to consistently apply current national advancement policies, then it really doesn't matter how much training we push down to the units -- does it?

Lastly, let me emphasize that I'm not trying to cast stones here. I'm a long way from Cleveland. If they are, in fact, requiring their ES candidates to submit reference letters with the ESRAs, then their ES candidates are simply not being afforded the opportunity to advance according to the same standards applied to other ES candidates outside their council.

==================

P.S. The ESRA (No. 512-728) was updated a couple of months ago; it must be used. Here's req 2:
Attachments
ESRA-Req2.jpg
ESRA-Req2.jpg (22.94 KiB) Viewed 13028 times
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby wagionvigil » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:33 pm

:D
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby E V Augustine » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:34 pm

RWSmith,

Thank you for your post.

The procedure described in my original post and utilized by council exists because it works. The practice places no additional duty on the Scout. Recall that the letters are returned to the troop advancement chair. One would assume the adult leader polices the responses.

The responsibilities remain in the unit. While at variance with national policy and guidance this element could be realigned by dragooning unit advancement chairs into the district advancement committee as mentioned earlier.

The requirement that the letters be submitted with the Eagle package ensures successful completion of an adult scouter task. Granted, the procedure is at variance with national policy and guidance. I have infrequently received packages short on letters and made inquiries with the unit leader to clarify the circumstances; with a plausible explanation we proceeded to the board.

Absent significant motivation I personally doubt council policy regarding this matter will change. With all due regard to you, the original poster hailing from the Greater Cleveland Council, and this forum I doubt comments posted on a web blog rise to the necessary level.

Hey, if you want to get excited how about requiring the Scout to turn in his blue cards with the Eagle Scout Rank Application so the advancement committee can verify the counselor was registered on the day he signed the card? I can attest that procedure was employed in Columbia-Montour Council (Bloomsburg, PA) in 1970. A check of my old home council web site indicates the practice continues today. Any takers?

Thank you again for your comments,

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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:08 pm

E V Augustine wrote:Hey, if you want to get excited how about requiring the Scout to turn in his blue cards with the Eagle Scout Rank Application so the advancement committee can verify the counselor was registered on the day he signed the card? I can attest that procedure was employed in Columbia-Montour Council (Bloomsburg, PA) in 1970. A check of my old home council web site indicates the practice continues today. Any takers?

Thank you again for your comments,

Eric V. Augustine


I have heard/seen this before. Not sure if this is the council but the history on it from what I was told was that they had a scout who had forged many of his blue cards and the MBs were never completed. So the reaction was to painstakingly verify that the MBC was a valid counselor since that is the only way to revoke a MB.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby RWSmith » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:05 pm

There are ways to employ procedures that help the process without interfering with the policies. When you find ways to do so, then by all means, have at it.

E.g., Every candidate should be prepared to present his portion of every blue card (or other verification he may have) for every merit badge listed on the ESRA. (And, he should never let them out of his control because it's the only proof he has that he earned the MB.) That way, if ScoutNet is wrong, then at least Scout has a case.

However, encouraging a Scout to do this, and requiring it are two different things. While the former helps the process, the later interferes with policy, even though it may end up being to the candidate's detriment.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:13 pm

RWSmith wrote:There are ways to employ procedures that help the process without interfering with the policies. When you find ways to do so, then by all means, have at it.

E.g., Every candidate should be prepared to present his portion of every blue card (or other verification he may have) for every merit badge listed on the ESRA. (And, he should never let them out of his control because it's the only proof he has that he earned the MB.) That way, if ScoutNet is wrong, then at least Scout has a case.

However, encouraging a Scout to do this, and requiring it are two different things. While the former helps the process, the later interferes with policy, even though it may end up being to the candidate's detriment.


Scoutnet wrong? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Look at how well we've all been able to verify our YPT. :roll:

I still have all my Blue Cards from 1969. My uniform too, but it don't fit so good!! :wink:
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby evmori » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:00 pm

The problem as I see it is letters of reference are not required. The Eagle candidate is to list 5-6 people who would be willing to give him a reference. How those references are contacted is up to the district/council advancement chair. In my council it is up to the DAC.

I did have an Eagle who didn't turn in any letters and a couple minutes before his EBOR the DAC asked me where his reference letters were. I responded "I have no idea. Didn't you check his references?" I got the "deer in the headlights" look from the DAC who then said "These letters are required." I responded by saying "No they aren't. The only thing the Scout is required to do is list 5-6 people who would be willing to give him a reference. How these references are obtained is up to you." I then asked my Scout if he was contacted to get reference letters. He said "No". I told the DAC the unit wasn't contacted either. This Scout had his EBOR and passed and the letters were never mentioned again.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby E V Augustine » Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:22 pm

Ed,

In the Cleveland Council that wouldn't have been a problem either. The conversation you had with the district advancement chair would have been with the council Eagle administrator (a council employee) before the Scout's package was forwarded to the Council Advancement Chair, then District Advancement Chair for scheduling.

As I wrote earlier, the system works.

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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby DadScout » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:51 am

OK, since my son is just going through the process I'll put out what happens in our Council

-9/17 - Submitted filled out Eagle application and a short desctription (2 liner)of the project and hrs spent. They apparently ask so they can keep a running record of hours to the community and show what the Scouts have done. We gave the info for 6 references. We were told by the SM to make sure these people know they will get a letter from Council.

-9/24 - Mom and Dad gets the Ref letter to fill out, it's a one page thing with 5 questions about the Scout and 5 choices for answers (multiple choice) and a section for free commentary. SM told us that when this comes we should check with the others to make sure they got it. Council likes to have 4 of the 6 returned but will let it pass with less.

-10/15 Council checked the records and found my son had not done two MBs. Actually they were done but the paperwork/badges were picked up at a neighbor council and not recorded to ScoutNet yet. They asked my son if he has the blue cards, he scanned them over. IF he did not have the blue cards they said they would have went back to the unit for verification.

- 11/3 We hear everythings in order, the Dist Eagle Board meeting is the next day when SM gets the ok to set up EBoR

- 11/16 EBoR should happen. SM likes to have Village Mayor sit on it and to not disturb him we normally schedule the EBoR just before Village meetings. Scout and Parents have no objections to the delay from 11/3 to 11/16 . At least two members of the Dist Eagle Board will sit on the BoR.

So from start to finish it will be 2 months. I'll note that during this our short staffed Council was doing Fall Recruitment, Fall Popcorn Fundraiser, and a Council wide Centennial Jambo. So all in all I was OK with it. In fact I told my son when he put in the paperwork to expect the BoR in the middle of Nov.

What did my Council add - The short description they like to use for publicity and they like to have 4/6 references returned before releasing the application back to the District Eagle Board. However, they will release it without 4.

Since someone will ask - he turns 18 in Jan '11
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby Billiken » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:03 am

Unless something has changed in the last six months at the Cleveland Council Service Center, the staff (Rose, Shirley, etc.) will refuse to accept an Eagle Application unless five (5) reference letters are included.

Our district has no protocol for the collection of Eagle reference letters.
FWIW, our troop provides each Eagle candidate with addressed envelopes (to our Troop Advancement chair).

E V Augustine wrote:The process utilized by the Greater Cleveland Council is as follows:

The Scout asks the person for their reference and lists the name, sometimes with contact information, on the rank application. The Scout hands the referrer a stamped envelope addressed to the troop advancement chair asking them to forward the letter in that envelope. The letters are received by the troop advancement chair and assembled with other elements of the Eagle package for submittal to council.

The council service center validates the ranks and merit badges, then checks for completeness. If the package is complete and correct the Council Advancement Chair is contacted by by e-mail. That gentleman comes into the service center to review the submittal and releases the package to the district chair for review and scheduling the board.


Thanks,

Eric V. Augustine
Advancement and Recognition Chair
Dover Rockport District
Greater Cleveland Council
Last edited by Billiken on Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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