Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

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Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby Billiken » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:16 pm

Greater Cleveland Council will not accept an Eagle Application without 5 letters of recommendation attached.
Blatant violation of policy.

Their arguement is that there is a clause in the ESLP book (section 6) regarding the collection of the letters: "...council will determine the methed used to contact." Their "method" is that the Scout bring/submit the letters.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby evmori » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:54 pm

Billiken wrote:Greater Cleveland Council will not accept an Eagle Application without 5 letters of recommendation attached.
Blatant violation of policy.

Their arguement is that there is a clause in the ESLP book (section 6) regarding the collection of the letters: "...council will determine the methed used to contact." Their "method" is that the Scout bring/submit the letters.



There is nothing wrong with their method. What's wrong is not accepting an Eagle applications without them. But hey, it's Cleveland!
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby Fred Johnson » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:58 pm

evmori wrote:But hey, it's Cleveland!


LOL !!!!!!
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:17 pm

Billiken wrote:Greater Cleveland Council will not accept an Eagle Application without 5 letters of recommendation attached.
Blatant violation of policy.

Their arguement is that there is a clause in the ESLP book (section 6) regarding the collection of the letters: "...council will determine the methed used to contact." Their "method" is that the Scout bring/submit the letters.


They must not know how to read since if they went a little further, the ACPP says

"If the initial reference letter or form is not returned to the council in a timely manner, the council advancement committee must make direct contact with the reference in question
(listed on the Eagle Scout Rank Application) by follow-up letter, phone contact, or other methods it chooses. The candidate shall not make any follow-up contact with the reference or submit other reference names."

So it would be hard for the Eagle Application to be turned into the council with all 5 letters attached if the CAC didn't get them back. I'm surprised the council hasn't been slammed dunked on this one on appeal. Cleveland or not. :)
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby RWSmith » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:22 pm

Just FYI for all,

Advancement Committee 'Policies and Procedures', No. 33088E wrote:"When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the references on the Eagle Scout Rank Application either by letter, form, or telephone checklist. The council determines the method or methods to be used. The candidate should have contacted those individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center."

The statement, "The council determines the method or methods to be used." needs to be applied in proper context. And, clearly, that council is not doing so.

The candidate is required to submit the references. Period.

What the CSS/CAC/DAC/ESBOR/whomever does, or fails to do, about contacting the references has no bearing whatsoever on the candidate's standing regarding advancement. That does not mean to say that the content of one or more of the references won't have any bearing, just that the council's failure to contact any or all references submitted cannot be held against the candidate.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby Billiken » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:20 pm

Obviously, everyone is correct.

I keep trying to figure out what the Cleveland Eagle Scout Association does.........
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby wagionvigil » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:24 pm

Billiken wrote:Obviously, everyone is correct.

I keep trying to figure out what the Cleveland Eagle Scout Association does.........

Make up their own rules
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:12 pm

Billiken wrote:Obviously, everyone is correct.

I keep trying to figure out what the Cleveland Eagle Scout Association does.........


Why don't you cut and paste our discussion into an email or letter and ask them? Copy the SE as well.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby Mrw » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:02 pm

The thing about the Eagle reference letters that Cleveland wants, is that they expect 5 letters submitted with the application. I have offered to request them for our boys as has our CC. Some like that and some do it themselves. The way they look at it though is five letters, not five letters from those references.

I recommend they ask 6-7 people for letters of reference, so if someone does not write it promptly, they are not waiting or chasing. No one has ever been questioned from our troop if the letters did not match the references on the application. So for the boy finishing in mid summer, who can list, but not easily contact, a teacher as a reference, this will not hold him back there.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby WVBeaver05 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:36 pm

Mrw wrote:The thing about the Eagle reference letters that Cleveland wants, is that they expect 5 letters submitted with the application. I have offered to request them for our boys as has our CC. Some like that and some do it themselves. The way they look at it though is five letters, not five letters from those references.

I recommend they ask 6-7 people for letters of reference, so if someone does not write it promptly, they are not waiting or chasing. No one has ever been questioned from our troop if the letters did not match the references on the application. So for the boy finishing in mid summer, who can list, but not easily contact, a teacher as a reference, this will not hold him back there.

So how do they reconcile that to (emphasis added):
Advancement Committee 'Policies and Procedures', No. 33088E wrote:"When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the references on the Eagle Scout Rank Application either by letter, form, or telephone checklist. The council determines the method or methods to be used. The candidate should have contacted those individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center."


or is this just an added requirement?

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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby Mrw » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:38 pm

Those letters are in sealed envelopes and not opened until the EBOR. They just want to know they are in the packet sent to the DAC before the EBOR is scheduled.

And like I said, in an ideal world the kids would give me the reference names and I would request and receive the responses. But if I offer, and they say no they will do it, am I supposed to report them for breaking rules and gum up the works?
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby smtroop168 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:22 pm

Mrw wrote:The thing about the Eagle reference letters that Cleveland wants, is that they expect 5 letters submitted with the application. I have offered to request them for our boys as has our CC. Some like that and some do it themselves. The way they look at it though is five letters, not five letters from those references.



What????? Why don't you just write one on a napkin and make 5 copies of it or use a sharpie so it bleeds through?

No wonder why Lebron went to Miami!!!
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby evmori » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:26 pm

I sent the SE of the Cleveland council a link to this thread. Just got the return e-mail that he read it.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby ThunderingWind » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:24 am

I say lawyer up and fire 'em all.

Maybe if we cut some BSA overhead we can use more money from popcorn, FOS etc....to lower camping fees and uniforms costs.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:28 am

evmori wrote:I sent the SE of the Cleveland council a link to this thread. Just got the return e-mail that he read it.


Get any feedback?
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby Mrw » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:38 pm

smtroop168 wrote:
evmori wrote:I sent the SE of the Cleveland council a link to this thread. Just got the return e-mail that he read it.


Get any feedback?


An email from our DAC informing us of a Boy Scout advancement training session one evening next week for Council, District and Troop advancement persons as well as SMs to cover rank advancement, Eagle paperwork and merit badges.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby lambeausam » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:14 pm

That's a start!
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:15 pm

Mrw wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:
evmori wrote:I sent the SE of the Cleveland council a link to this thread. Just got the return e-mail that he read it.


Get any feedback?


An email from our DAC informing us of a Boy Scout advancement training session one evening next week for Council, District and Troop advancement persons as well as SMs to cover rank advancement, Eagle paperwork and merit badges.


That'll be fun...ask hard questions
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby Mrw » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:34 pm

smtroop168 wrote:
Mrw wrote:An email from our DAC informing us of a Boy Scout advancement training session one evening next week for Council, District and Troop advancement persons as well as SMs to cover rank advancement, Eagle paperwork and merit badges.


That'll be fun...ask hard questions



Let's see what they have to say first.
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Re: Greater Cleveland Council - ESRA - References issue....

Postby evmori » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:30 pm

Mrw wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:
Mrw wrote:An email from our DAC informing us of a Boy Scout advancement training session one evening next week for Council, District and Troop advancement persons as well as SMs to cover rank advancement, Eagle paperwork and merit badges.


That'll be fun...ask hard questions



Let's see what they have to say first.


I'd be ready to ask them to show you that in writing!

You will have to let us know how it goes.
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