Get'r done before 18

Information to help with the rank of Eagle Scout.

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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby evmori » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:51 am

jr56 wrote:True Ed. But how much time should a scout allow for the EBOR to be convened if the current system were changed. 1 month, 3 months, 9 months? I would say the vast majority of Eagle board members do the best they can to have the BOR done in a timely fashion. But sometimes members are out of town for one reason or another, maybe an illness, there are all sorts of things that could delay an EBOR.


In my district, EBOR's are held monthly and in my opinion this is how they should be scheduled. Scheduling them any farther apart is wrong.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby nolesrule » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:36 pm

If everything has to be done by the 18th birthday, then if the scout has everything done but the EBOR the day before his 18th birthday, whoever is responsible for doing Eagle boards needs to be prepared to do it on demand the day the application gets turned in.

You see, bureaucratic paperwork processing time following the application turn-in isn't part of the Eagle requirements (and technically, neither is the Eagle application, but that's another topic), so if the CAC/DAC/unit (whoever is responsible) is not prepared for an on-demand EBOR prior to the 18th birthday, they have just created an appealable situation.

And that is the real cause for the 3 month window after 18. It saves the appeals process from blowing up. It allows time for applications and records to be reviewed and for EBORs to be scheduled regularly for everyone's convenience (our district does them monthly at the council office) rather than on demand.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:12 pm

nolesrule wrote:If everything has to be done by the 18th birthday, then if the scout has everything done but the EBOR the day before his 18th birthday, whoever is responsible for doing Eagle boards needs to be prepared to do it on demand the day the application gets turned in.

You see, bureaucratic paperwork processing time following the application turn-in isn't part of the Eagle requirements (and technically, neither is the Eagle application, but that's another topic), so if the CAC/DAC/unit (whoever is responsible) is not prepared for an on-demand EBOR prior to the 18th birthday, they have just created an appealable situation.

And that is the real cause for the 3 month window after 18. It saves the appeals process from blowing up. It allows time for applications and records to be reviewed and for EBORs to be scheduled regularly for everyone's convenience (our district does them monthly at the council office) rather than on demand.


My thought is that if the requirement is that every requirement (the EBOR is requirement #7)has to be completed before the scout's 18th birthday, then everyone (Scouts, ULs, Districts, Councils) will adjust their timelines for processing paperwork and scheduling EBORs. I'm picturing the current 18 y/o scout completing all but the BOR at the 17 year 9 month point.

There is also the 3-6 month window and the greater than 6 month windows for EBORs. I don't know how many 6+ month requests National gets and what they do with them.

Or here's another idea for Wagion...if you stay in Ventures you can work on Eagle until you're 21. :wink:
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby wagionvigil » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:17 pm

smtroop168 wrote:
nolesrule wrote:If everything has to be done by the 18th birthday, then if the scout has everything done but the EBOR the day before his 18th birthday, whoever is responsible for doing Eagle boards needs to be prepared to do it on demand the day the application gets turned in.

You see, bureaucratic paperwork processing time following the application turn-in isn't part of the Eagle requirements (and technically, neither is the Eagle application, but that's another topic), so if the CAC/DAC/unit (whoever is responsible) is not prepared for an on-demand EBOR prior to the 18th birthday, they have just created an appealable situation.

And that is the real cause for the 3 month window after 18. It saves the appeals process from blowing up. It allows time for applications and records to be reviewed and for EBORs to be scheduled regularly for everyone's convenience (our district does them monthly at the council office) rather than on demand.


My thought is that if the requirement is that every requirement (the EBOR is requirement #7)has to be completed before the scout's 18th birthday, then everyone (Scouts, ULs, Districts, Councils) will adjust their timelines for processing paperwork and scheduling EBORs. I'm picturing the current 18 y/o scout completing all but the BOR at the 17 year 9 month point.

There is also the 3-6 month window and the greater than 6 month windows for EBORs. I don't know how many 6+ month requests National gets and what they do with them.

Or here's another idea for Wagion...if you stay in Ventures you can work on Eagle until you're 21. :wink:


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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:24 pm

You're no fun!!!!
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby ThunderingWind » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:32 pm

smtroop168 wrote:Or here's another idea for Wagion...if you stay in Ventures you can work on Eagle until you're 21. :wink:

Hey, let's bring back adults being able to earn Eagle a well. Or was that just one of those Urban Legends told by guys who were youths in the 1930s and 1940s?
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:38 pm

ThunderingWind wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:Or here's another idea for Wagion...if you stay in Ventures you can work on Eagle until you're 21. :wink:

Hey, let's bring back adults being able to earn Eagle a well. Or was that just one of those Urban Legends told by guys who were youths in the 1930s and 1940s?


No that's actually true...adults could earn Eagle until 1952 when the BSA did a total revamp of the Star/Life/Eagle requirements. It's also when they added the forebearer to the "active" requirement although they called it Scout Participation. PORs were added in 1965 along with the SM conference and Eagle Project. They allowed adults to earn Eagle until then because of the large number of "boys" who went into WWII.
Last edited by smtroop168 on Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby wagionvigil » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:39 pm

smtroop168 wrote:You're no fun!!!!

I do have limits
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby Quailman » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:40 pm

My son had his EBOR a week prior to his 18th BD. He could have had it quite a bit sooner were it not for the difficulty in getting letters of recommendation from a couple of people. I'm all for leaving the cushion in for that reason and the availability of adults for the BOR.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:03 pm

Quailman wrote:My son had his EBOR a week prior to his 18th BD. He could have had it quite a bit sooner were it not for the difficulty in getting letters of recommendation from a couple of people. I'm all for leaving the cushion in for that reason and the availability of adults for the BOR.



Another example of councils not following the policy:

A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter form he delivered.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby Quailman » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:56 pm

I brought that up. The way our district does it is that they delegate the reference letter collection to the SM of the candidate. He is told not to submit the app without the letters. I know, it's total BS.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby ThunderingWind » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:55 pm

Quailman wrote:I brought that up. The way our district does it is that they delegate the reference letter collection to the SM of the candidate. He is told not to submit the app without the letters. I know, it's total BS.

Please have your District put that in writing for your "Eagle Process Policy Manual" you are building then fire 'em all.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby evmori » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:38 am

Quailman wrote:I brought that up. The way our district does it is that they delegate the reference letter collection to the SM of the candidate. He is told not to submit the app without the letters. I know, it's total BS.


They can put the onus on the SM but they can not deny a EBOR because they don't have the letters that aren't required in the 1st place!
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:33 am

This is from Quailman's council web site.

"The Unit Advancement Chairman should solicit reference letters and the references send their letters back to the Unit Advancement Chairman. IMPORTANT NOTE: Time extensions because of late reference letters will not be granted by the National Boy Scout Committee. Please contact references if they have not responded in two weeks."

WHAT??? Does Bob Mazucca know about this?
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby ThunderingWind » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:35 am

smtroop168 wrote:This is from Quailman's council web site.

"The Unit Advancement Chairman should solicit reference letters and the references send their letters back to the Unit Advancement Chairman. IMPORTANT NOTE: Time extensions because of late reference letters will not be granted by the National Boy Scout Committee. Please contact references if they have not responded in two weeks."

WHAT??? Does Bob Mazucca know about this?

He needs to be told immediately. Didn't someone's daughter get hired by National and had the direct line phone number?
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby evmori » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:40 am

smtroop168 wrote:This is from Quailman's council web site.

"The Unit Advancement Chairman should solicit reference letters and the references send their letters back to the Unit Advancement Chairman. IMPORTANT NOTE: Time extensions because of late reference letters will not be granted by the National Boy Scout Committee. Please contact references if they have not responded in two weeks."

WHAT??? Does Bob Mazucca know about this?


These are the kind of people that give everything they touch a bad name!
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby Fred Johnson » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:53 pm

I had to see if for myself. Sorry for being a doubting Thomas.

http://www.samhoustonbsa.org/leader_resources/advancement_program/advancing_from_life_to_eagle

This may be a case where the council re-wrote the wording of Step 6 of the "The 12 Steps From Life to Eagle" to make it easier and instead just muddied the waters further. Does that council actually mean the scout won't become an Eagle Scout if his unit leaders and/or references don't respond in a timely way and actually provide letters? Or are they just trying emphasize that the person getting documentation from the references should follow up quickly if they don't get a timely response.

Depending on what that council actually does, it's either wrong or very very poorly worded. I'd rather see quotes from the Eagle project workbook AND then enumerate helpful suggestions like

  • Expedite the Eagle process by quickly following up with the references.
  • Remind the scout to pursue completing his EBOR in a timely manor after completing his project.
  • In this council, the unit advancement coordinator is responsible for collecting the application references and ....

Like we should do for our scouts, let's give this council the benefit of the doubt. It does sound wrong, but it could just be poorly written.

(My pessimistic side says I've seen this before. Over and over again. Imposing extra requirements. Putting up obstacles. But, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.)
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby evmori » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:17 pm

There is so much wrong with what this council is doing.

In order to help organize the Scout as he prepares to qualify for the Eagle Scout rank, it is recommended that the Eagle Award Application and Project Workbook be presented to each Scout upon completion of his Life Scout Board of Review, unless he is more than 17 years and six months of age at that time.


What happens when the Scout is 17.5 years old? There is no explaination.

Confidential reference letters are required by the Council to help in the certification process - to determine that a candidate lives by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law.


Reference letters are not required. Listing references is.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Time extensions because of late reference letters will not be granted by the National Boy Scout Committee. Please contact references if they have not responded in two weeks.


A direct violation of National Policy.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:32 pm

Ed..if he's more than 17.5 y/o when he makes Life he can't make Eagle. This is another poorly worded item. I did a EBOR on a scout who made Life at 17.46 y/o recently but most have been Life scouts for 2-5 years.
Last edited by smtroop168 on Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Get'r done before 18

Postby Fred Johnson » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:34 pm

IMPORTANT NOTE: Time extensions because of late reference letters will not be granted by the National Boy Scout Committee. Please contact references if they have not responded in two weeks.


It doesn't say what they will do if the reference letters don't arrive. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and hoping they go forward on schedule with a EBOR. I think that someone just wrote a confusing document when he was frustrated dealing with problems getting reference. I agree that BSA does not grant time extensions for references because their not required. (By the way ... "National Boy Scout Committee" ... What's that? It's capitalized like it is an official name. )

For a year, our troop tried to write our troop's policies and procedures. Eventually, we dropped documenting policies and procedures realizing it's better to reference the official BSA sources. And, then have copies of those sources available. In the end, we wrote a parent orientation guide to our troop that documented costs, common camps and a few of the specifics that troops are allowed to specify. And, references listing the key BSA documents.
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