EBOR Observers

Information to help with the rank of Eagle Scout.

Moderators: Site Admin, Moderators

EBOR Observers

Postby razor_strop » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:26 pm

This is a slightly different twist on a question we discussed before re: parents observing an EBOR under the G2SS "all aspects of Scouting are open to observation" guideline.

We have an EBOR coming up, and one of our committee members (who is not a member of the EBOR) has asked to sit in as an observer. On a personal level, I'm reluctant to allow it (as Committee Chair, working in concert with the Advancement Chair to select the EBOR members, as our council allows unit-level EBORs); the first EBOR on which she sat she almost caused an adjournment before it even started because she doggedly refused to recognize that an aspect of the Scout's ESLSP was, although unconventional, within the requirements. This was her first EBOR, and her argument was in conflict with the other 5 EBOR members, who collectively had something close to 75 years experience in Scouting. The Scout waited for over an hour and a half while she debated (in error), but thankfully relented in the end, allowing the Scout to receive the Eagle rank he deserved.

I know I can simply say 'no', but I'd rather have some BSA policy backing me up so it doesn't seem so arbitrary or personal. BSA 33088 (2008 edition) mentions that a Scoutmaster can sit in on an EBOR as an observer, but mentions no other authorized or unauthorized observers. Under "Preparing for Your Board of Review" on eaglescout.org (http://www.eaglescout.org/finale/bor.html), there is mention of an EBOR's confidentiality ("The contents of the Board of Review are confidential and the proceedings are not to be disclosed to any person who is not a member of the Board of Review."), but eaglescout.org is not, to my knowledge, an official BSA source, making the statement more opinion than policy.

Does anyone have any other official BSA guidance on EBOR observers?

Thanks!
razor_strop
Life
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:24 am

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:56 pm

A couple of things:

I see no BSA restriction on having an "observer" on an EBOR or any other BOR other than she cannot open her mouth. If she does, dismiss her immediately. Sometimes I see units asking to have observers for training purposes but they sit in the corner, behind the candidate where he can't see them and this is explained to him before we start.

Although your Council allows unit EBORs, you must have a District or Council Rep on the board as per the ACPP (#33088). This person's job is to keep what happened at your earlier BOR from happening.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby Billiken » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:57 pm

IIRC, if the Scoutmaster is the father of the Eagle Candidate, the SM/father can not observe.
"The only problem with Boy Scouts is, there aren't enough of them." Will Rogers
Billiken
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 937
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:27 pm
Location: Greater Cleveland Council

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby Mrw » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:49 pm

Although I can see the point of having someone sit in as training to see how it is supposed to be done, I really think having someone come in and train the committee members on how to do BOR's, including EBOR's would be more productive.

It would make some of our committee discussions much easier to have it come from someone other than me.
Mother of two Eagles and troop Advancement Chair
Mrw
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:49 pm
Location: Greater Cleveland

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby FrankJ » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:40 pm

The advancement policy & procedures handbook is the final word. It does not mention observers other than the scout master. I do not have an issue with observers with a reason, but there needs to be a clear understanding that the observer has no voice unless asked & no vote in any case. If there any question that they cannot follow the rules or no reason to observe to begin with, they should not be there. I would leave to them to find something that says otherwise.

G2SS has a blurb about all meetings being open & not secret. Paul Wolf has an excellent post on this somewhere. He essentially says if a parent was to insist, structure the board so that the parents can watch from a distance & stop the board if they interrupt.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby evmori » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:24 am

As long as the observer is not related to the candidate and stays quiet. I think the EBOR members would have the final say. And just because all meetings are open doesn't mean the persons holding the meeting can chose to restrict who can attend or observe.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby FrankJ » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:31 am

If you restrict who can attend a meeting, it is no longer an open meeting. EBOR are not open meetings.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby kwildman » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:32 am

we recently had this conversation at the district level. could not find anywhere where it says that the scoutmaster/father or a parent could be an observer in the advancement guidelines. I know that this is common practice but can somebody point me at the correct citation for this.

I am a SM/father and agree that the parents should not be involved in the EBOR process. I think it could potential make an awkward situation for the board.
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
kwildman
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Simon Kenton Council

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:59 am

http://www.meritbadge.com/info/policy4.htm This is from the 1999 ACPP and says relatives can't stay for an EBOR in the 12 steps to Eagle section.

The 2008 version only says that parents, relatives, SM, ASM cannot serve on the BOR. Makes no mention on observing.


This is one of those "show me where it says you can" vs "show me where it says you can't"! Bring on the Lawyers! :lol:
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby FrankJ » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:44 am

we recently had this conversation at the district level. could not find anywhere where it says that the scoutmaster/father or a parent could be an observer in the advancement guidelines. I know that this is common practice but can somebody point me at the correct citation for this.


The Advancement Committee Policy & Procedures Handbook specifically says parents / relatives are not to be present in any capacity for BORs & EBORS. Non relative SMs can be present, but not speak unless spoken to.G2SS says specifically all aspects of scouting is open to observation by parents and leaders. (page 1). So a smart leader would address G2SS youth protection concerns in a way that does not conflict the need for BOR confidentiality. Youth protection concerns would be the only reason to force the presence of an observer.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:10 pm

FrankJ wrote:The Advancement Committee Policy & Procedures Handbook specifically says parents / relatives are not to be present in any capacity for BORs & EBORS.

Frank...I'm not seeing this in the ACPP. Pgs 29 and 32 only say they can't be members of the BOR.
Last edited by RWSmith on Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Fixed broken BBCode
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby kwildman » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:15 pm

frank...exact citation please. I have looked because I believed that it was the case and couldnt find it. i am begining to think this is an scouting urban legend.
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
kwildman
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Simon Kenton Council

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby FrankJ » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:37 pm

Scared me for moment. :) I had to search to find it. Item 9 of life to eagle PG 32 in the 2009 version of the advancement committee handbook. It specifically says no parents.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:08 pm

The exact terminology is -

"The unit leader may remain in the room, but does not participate in the board of review. The unit leader may be called on to clarify a point in question. In no case should a relative or guardian of the candidate attend the review, even as a unit leader."
Nuts4Scouts
Eagle
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:17 am
Location: Des Plaines Valley

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:31 pm

FrankJ wrote:Scared me for moment. :) I had to search to find it. Item 9 of life to eagle PG 32 in the 2009 version of the advancement committee handbook. It specifically says no parents.


FYI....The 2009 Version is not the official one as it was pulled back from National for some unknown reason.

My whoops....The 2008 version does say "In no case should a relative or guardian of the candidate attend the review even as the unit leader" This appears to be the same wording as the 1999 version. Interesting it doesn't say "parent" (implied in "relative") but does say guardian.

This wording is in the section for EBORs but I guess you could say it applies to all BORs although pg 29 only says they can't serve as members. Doesn't say they can't attend.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby ThunderingWind » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:48 am

Somehow I feel the legal beagles will successfuly defend that the position of parent trumps anything...

so regardless of what any of the documentation states in print, if the parents wants to be there, we cannot deny them under the open door policy.

This does not preclude the President of the Board makng it perfectly clear that the open door policy allows them observe but at no point are they allowed to act, react, interact, interject, speak, mumble, moan, sigh, breath loudly etc...

I also have no problems with explaining to a candidate, his parents, or the unit rep that Mr/Mrs. X will be observing so that they may better understand the EBoR process and participate in future EBoR (ie We are training Mr/Mrs X to be on future EBoRs).
No Longer a Registered Scouter
ThunderingWind
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1081
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:16 pm
Location: longer affiliated with the BSA

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby lambeausam » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:34 pm

Let them observe from outside the window! :wink:
lambeausam
Life
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:36 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby lifescoutforlife » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:32 am

How do people like this ever become a part of scouting :?:
If you don't take care of the Cub Scouts there will be no Boy Scouts!
Owl Patrol NE-IV-214
lifescoutforlife
Eagle
 
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:49 am
Location: Chief Cornplanter Council

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby evmori » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:05 am

Somehow I feel the legal beagles will successfuly defend that the position of parent trumps anything...


Well if the legal folk want to get involved, let 'em. Little Johnnies EBOR can wait until they appeal it to death and Little Johnnie is 30.

so regardless of what any of the documentation states in print, if the parents wants to be there, we cannot deny them under the open door policy.


In this case, I would tell mom and dad, one peep out of ya and the EBOR is finished.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Re: EBOR Observers

Postby ThunderingWind » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:39 am

lifescoutforlife wrote:How do people like this ever become a part of scouting :?:

Some how the DOT GOV allows them to breed and they bring the off spring to Scouting
No Longer a Registered Scouter
ThunderingWind
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1081
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:16 pm
Location: longer affiliated with the BSA

Next

Return to Eagle Scout

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests