ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

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ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:19 am

Are the statements in requirement #6 on the Eagle Application (Attach to this application a statement of your ambitions and life purpose and a listing of positions held in your religious institution, school, camp, community, or other organizations during which you demonstrated leadership skills. Include honors and awards received during this service. ) a pre or post 18 requirement?

I had a post 18 EBOR last night where the statements were not "attached" (read not done). I adjourned the EBOR until I can get in touch with our DAC.
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Re: Maximum Time Between 18th BD and Eagle BOR?

Postby PaulSWolf » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:39 am

I would consider them part if the application, not one of the "requirements". Once he attaches them, you should proceed.
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Re: Maximum Time Between 18th BD and Eagle BOR?

Postby ThunderingWind » Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:55 pm

Did the Eagle Candidate state to the board that he did, in fact, NOT write the statement?

Was it lost in the paper shuffle?

If he stated he did not write it, and he is allowed another BOR, then question his thought
process behind the decision not to write it.

If he answers thougthfully, humbly, regretfully, etc...pass him. It he is still arrogant, don't
pass him under Living the Scout Oath, Law, Spirit and whatever else you can think of.
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Re: Maximum Time Between 18th BD and Eagle BOR?

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:17 pm

ThunderingWind wrote:Did the Eagle Candidate state to the board that he did, in fact, NOT write the statement?

Was it lost in the paper shuffle?

If he stated he did not write it, and he is allowed another BOR, then question his thought
process behind the decision not to write it.

If he answers thougthfully, humbly, regretfully, etc...pass him. It he is still arrogant, don't
pass him under Living the Scout Oath, Law, Spirit and whatever else you can think of.


Never written.

So should he get another BOR or did he not complete the application prior to his 18th birthday? Or are the statements not requirements?

Paul says yes....Other Opinions?
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Re: Maximum Time Between 18th BD and Eagle BOR?

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:11 pm

The BSA requirement for Eagle is to have completed the requirements prior to the 18th birthday, NOT the application.

The 6th requirement is to take part in a Scoutmaster conference. The letter on goals, etc, is only noted on the application, and so is part of the application, not the Eagle requirement.

I would ask 2 questions : 1) why was it that the Troop leaders never noticed the lack of this piece of paperwork? 2) how did the scout manage to miss this?

I would then have him write the statement, and then reschedule a new EBOR.
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:42 pm

Thanks. I knew I should have started a new thread after I posted my first one.

To answer Nuts4scouts: There is a game which you have to find out who did it..."Clue". Not more but...."less".
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Re: Maximum Time Between 18th BD and Eagle BOR?

Postby evmori » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:51 am

smtroop168 wrote:
ThunderingWind wrote:Did the Eagle Candidate state to the board that he did, in fact, NOT write the statement?

Was it lost in the paper shuffle?

If he stated he did not write it, and he is allowed another BOR, then question his thought
process behind the decision not to write it.

If he answers thougthfully, humbly, regretfully, etc...pass him. It he is still arrogant, don't
pass him under Living the Scout Oath, Law, Spirit and whatever else you can think of.


Never written.

So should he get another BOR or did he not complete the application prior to his 18th birthday? Or are the statements not requirements?

Paul says yes....Other Opinions?


If it was never written the BOR should not have been convened.
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:35 pm

Ed...we did not convene the board. When I saw the paperwork was missing, I told the scout his application was incomplete and we could not proceed.

Question is since the application was incomplete and the statements would clearly not be done before he turned 18 what should be done now?
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby evmori » Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:13 pm

I would tell this lad to get writing. And since the EBOR was never convened, he never had an EBOR.
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby FrankJ » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:14 pm

I would tell the scout to write the statement & give him his board of review. To deny an eagle because of paper work is wrong. I see the argument otherwise, but just do not agree with it. It is not like you are given a big break. The 6mo rule would still apply.
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:05 pm

I spoke to a nice gent at National this afternoon. He did recognize that the Application and BSA requirements could create confusion. I suggested putting the same wording from the application in the other publications.

He blamed the council for certifying the application without the statements.

He blamed the unit SM for not ensuring these were complete when he had the SMC with the youth.

He said I was correct in holding the board in abeyance until the application was complete. Once the application is complete, move forward as if there was not an EBOR.

See you can talk to a person at National! :D
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby ThunderingWind » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:44 pm

FrankJ wrote:I would tell the scout to write the statement & give him his board of review. To deny an eagle because of paper work is wrong. I see the argument otherwise, but just do not agree with it. It is not like you are given a big break. The 6mo rule would still apply.

But does a young man this lazy really meet the qualifications of Eagle? If he slacked off on his application, where else in his Scouting life did he slack off?
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby evmori » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:54 pm

ThunderingWind wrote:
FrankJ wrote:I would tell the scout to write the statement & give him his board of review. To deny an eagle because of paper work is wrong. I see the argument otherwise, but just do not agree with it. It is not like you are given a big break. The 6mo rule would still apply.

But does a young man this lazy really meet the qualifications of Eagle? If he slacked off on his application, where else in his Scouting life did he slack off?


I can see both sides of this. I would not be inclined to give this guy to much leeway.
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby Cowboy » Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:56 am

That is part of the application. I would not only question his adherance to the policy, but where was council on this one? How did they accept the application AND approve it without this specifically stated requirement? Our DAC even reminded my son to include this or it would hold up his application. He was on the ball and had it for the SM to look over when he held his SMC as that is technically part of Scoutmaster conference "requirement" of the application. Call me hard nosed, but I would not be overly inclined to reschedule on this one. I would also be on the horn chewing someone out at council.
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:28 pm

From the Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures, it states -

"The requirements for each rank are those authorized by the National Executive Board and set forth in the Boy Scout Handbook and the current Boy Scout Requirements book."

The requirements for Eagle in the Boy Scout Requirements book do not include the writing of a statement. This is part of the application and does NOT have to be completed before 18 yo.

Calling the boy "lazy", and questioning all work done, for all of his requirements, since joining BSA, is, to me, petty, and mean spirited.

His Eagle requirements have been completed, and approved. The question of his forgetting to write the statement can be addressed at his EBOR. However, NO ONE, at the unit, or his council, caught this mistake until the last minute. So, it seems that the Scout is not the only one who is not perfect.

If his Eagle is denied just because of this he will be awarded his Eagle upon appeal.
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby FrankJ » Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:26 pm

But does a young man this lazy really meet the qualifications of Eagle? If he slacked off on his application, where else in his Scouting life did he slack off?


That would be the fault of the troop for allowing a lazy kid to get that far and not throwing him out. :roll: Even taking the fast track, merit badge mills, dad writing the eagle project, getting the eagle rank is not easy.

Anyway National, the opinion that matters, has spoken. Making, in my mind at least, the right decision.
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby ThunderingWind » Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:38 pm

Nuts4Scouts wrote:Calling the boy "lazy", and questioning all work done, for all of his requirements, since joining BSA, is, to me, petty, and mean spirited.
Understood. But his actions make me question his Scout Spirit in his daily life.

Had the OP said he forgot it and will provide it within 48 hours (or agreed time frame), I would have thought bette of the
candidate. But the OP said he just not do it. Not being able to get any voice inflection via the forum, I went with the "lazy Scout"
view point. I will give credit to Scout because he did say he did not do it rather than say it was attached and someone must have lost it.

As for the Unit and everyone else who had to review the packet, they dropped the ball on this application.
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:12 pm

You think that a young man who has done enough work to reach the rank of eagle would, at the point of filling out his Eagle application, look at the request for a statement of goals and, on purpose simply say !%@#* it, I don't feel like doing this???

Really?
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby ThunderingWind » Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:35 pm

Nuts4Scouts wrote:You think that a young man who has done enough work to reach the rank of eagle would, at the point of filling out his Eagle application, look at the request for a statement of goals and, on purpose simply say !%@#* it, I don't feel like doing this???

Really?

Yep. I have seen it with youth as well as adults....just walk away from success. Some say it is a fear of success that drives them away.
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Re: ESRA, Req. 6 - "Attach to this application"....

Postby razor_strop » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:13 pm

Those that spent time in the military, particularly the Army, are probably familiar with the term "Tab/Badge Protectors". They are the folks that were involved in the testing or evaluating portions of a course that, if the student passed, would be awarded a special badge or tab signifying their accomplishment. The "protectors" were those that, for whatever reason, would dig into the minutia of the requirements to actively find reasons to keep students/candidates from earning the award, since "they aren't working as hard as I had to", or "they don't appreciate what this means", or "I'm just ensuring the awardees measure up to the expectations others have of award holders". Sometimes, these "protectors" didn't even earn the award themselves, but felt they had a mandate to keep others from earning it unless they measured up to their skewed (and often outside of policy) expectations. As you can imagine, tab protectors were a truly despised group of folks, and for good reason.

I mention all this as a cautionary note. Boy Scouting is an inclusionary organzation. Its aims are not to keep out those youth that someone has arbitrarily deemed "unworthy". Rather, our job as adults is to enable the youth to not only reach their potential, but to exceed it whenever possible. Has the Scout met the published requirements? If yes, then recognize him. If not, then help him to do so. Don't create artificial obstacles to ensure our personal standards are tacked on to the already challenging requirements.

In other words, don't be an Eagle Badge protector.
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