Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

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Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Fri May 21, 2010 1:08 pm

Scout #2 is ready to start his project. According to the handbook, "The project plan must be reviewed and approved by the beneficiary, your unit leader, the unit committee, and the council or district advancement committee before the project is started." Do they have to be obtained in that order? Our district advancement chair is fantastic, and bends over backward to make sure the boys are successful. He'll meet with them beforehand to make sure everything is perfect before they submit. I'm not as confident that our committee can convene in a timely manner (school ending, vacations, etc). He can't physically start the project until their signature, but does he have to wait for the troop committee's before getting the district's?
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby scoutaholic » Fri May 21, 2010 2:19 pm

AquilaNegra2 wrote:Scout #2 is ready to start his project. According to the handbook, "The project plan must be reviewed and approved by the beneficiary, your unit leader, the unit committee, and the council or district advancement committee before the project is started." Do they have to be obtained in that order? Our district advancement chair is fantastic, and bends over backward to make sure the boys are successful. He'll meet with them beforehand to make sure everything is perfect before they submit. I'm not as confident that our committee can convene in a timely manner (school ending, vacations, etc). He can't physically start the project until their signature, but does he have to wait for the troop committee's before getting the district's?

He doesn't have to wait for the committee to meet. The signature is that of the committee chairman or designated advancement chairman. Scout #2 can go to said committee members door, talk to them about his project plans, and request their signature. No need for the committee to convene.

As far as the order the signatures are gathered, it doesn't really matter that much. In our area, the district approval is supposed to be the last, but the other 3 can be in any order. This is just so that the district guy knows it is all getting done.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby smtroop168 » Fri May 21, 2010 2:29 pm

I think the order of signatures is implied. Around here, the District is the Final Approval. I don't meet with a scout on his project until all the other three signatures are obtained. Your proposed way cuts out the Troop Leadership.

Here is another example of "not sure the troop committee can meet in a timely manner". It's their job!
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Fri May 21, 2010 2:34 pm

I agree. Although, the sponsor SHOULD be first to sign, how else would the SM and CC know that the organization wants the project?!! And, the council advancement person SHOULD be last. Meet with the committee? Why, it isn't required. In our troop, a couple of experienced members of the TC sit down with the candidate and help him through it. Then, if the CC isn't around (he travels) then he has a designated person handle it for him. But SM and CC signatures can be in any order. I'm one of three DAC Eagle Advisors and we don't mind what order, as long as ours is last.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Fri May 21, 2010 2:35 pm

I don't see how it cuts out the troop leadership; it's just for expediency's sake. CC wants a presentation made to the full committee. Scout will already have beneficiary's signature, SM approval, and District approval. We didn't realize it could just be the Committee Chair's signature. (I'm AC so couldn't sign it off.) I guess he can try to convince her to forgo a full committee presentation; I'm not confident.

Is there anything that says it can just be the CC, so he has something to back it up with?

Thanks!

ETA: Thanks for your help. She says she'll go ahead and do it herself if she can't wrangle them up.
Last edited by AquilaNegra2 on Fri May 21, 2010 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby scoutaholic » Fri May 21, 2010 2:46 pm

AquilaNegra2 wrote:I don't see how it cuts out the troop leadership; it's just for expediency's sake. CC wants a presentation made to the full committee. Scout will already have beneficiary's signature, SM approval, and District approval. We didn't realize it could just be the Committee Chair's signature. (I'm AC so couldn't sign it off.) I guess he can try to convince her to forgo a full committee presentation; I'm not confident.

Is there anything that says it can just be the CC, so he has something to back it up with?

Thanks!


Is there some reason you can't sign it as AC? Just because you are family doesn't remove your job as AC.

Does CC realize that a presentation to the full committee is not part of the requirements? This is not something that she should be insisting on.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Fri May 21, 2010 2:53 pm

Aquilanegra2 wrote wrote:Is there anything that says it can just be the CC, so he has something to back it up with?


Sure, page 9 of the Eagle Leadership Service Project workbook (the signature page). As a matter of fact, it can be ANYONE on the TC! Grilling the candidate about his proposal can make the TC meetings last into the wee hours. I know some troops hold mock EBoR's, too. Neither is right or required.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby smtroop168 » Fri May 21, 2010 3:42 pm

AquilaNegra2 wrote:I don't see how it cuts out the troop leadership; it's just for expediency's sake. CC wants a presentation made to the full committee. Scout will already have beneficiary's signature, SM approval, and District approval. We didn't realize it could just be the Committee Chair's signature. (I'm AC so couldn't sign it off.) I guess he can try to convince her to forgo a full committee presentation; I'm not confident.

Is there anything that says it can just be the CC, so he has something to back it up with?

Thanks!

ETA: Thanks for your help. She says she'll go ahead and do it herself if she can't wrangle them up.


The TC is responsible as the Board of Directors for the Troop program and one of their jobs is to ensure that the BSA rules and regs are followed. In our troop the boys gain a lot of help by vetting their projects with Comm members. They are not grilled, they are provided helpful hints. It also gives the CC a feel for what types of EPs the scouts are doing. Only our CC signs the ESLPW but it could be anyone. One Troop I deal with has their Eagle mentor (who is a CM) sign for the committee.

In my Navy analogy...it's like getting the CO's signature without cutting in the XO. You would only do that once!
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby Cowboy » Sun May 23, 2010 7:54 am

According to 33088: "The Scout must secure the prior approval of his unit leader, his unit committee, and the benefactor of the project." (Page 29) Only one member of the committee signs the workbook, and that can be anyone. Eagle Project workbook page -9-. However, the application for Eagle MUST be signed by the Committee Chair.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby jr56 » Tue May 25, 2010 12:09 pm

If you want to run the Eagle proposal by the entire committee fine. But don't say they might not be able to meet in a timely manner. As has been already stated, it is their duty to serve the youth to the best of their ability.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby FrankJ » Tue May 25, 2010 1:42 pm

Our district wants the other three before they will review it. The other three is kind of an back & forth process. The scout works out the idea with the beneficiary. He then works with a committee member to properly write up the project and make sure all the objectives are met. By that time the SM & beneficiary generally just sign it. It then goes off to the district for their approval.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue May 25, 2010 7:07 pm

AN2.......Going back to the original post....why does this need to be expedited?
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby evmori » Wed May 26, 2010 8:25 am

I think the important thing is all others have signed prior to the DAC's signature.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby smtroop168 » Wed May 26, 2010 5:48 pm

evmori wrote:I think the important thing is all others have signed prior to the DAC's signature.


No disagreement here but that's not what he wants to do and I was curious on why not.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby evmori » Wed May 26, 2010 9:21 pm

smtroop168 wrote:
evmori wrote:I think the important thing is all others have signed prior to the DAC's signature.


No disagreement here but that's not what he wants to do and I was curious on why not.


Not what who wants to do?
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Thu May 27, 2010 3:29 am

smtroop168 wrote:AN2.......Going back to the original post....why does this need to be expedited?


He wants to earn Eagle before summer camp (mid-July). Their troop breaks for the summer, and things tend to move a lot more slowly then. But it's all good. She said she'd make time for him, even if it's just her.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby WeeWillie » Thu May 27, 2010 10:27 am

If the Eagle candidate wanted to earn Eagle before Summer Camp he should have adjusted his schedule to meet that objective without expecting Adults to jump through hula-hoops to see that it happens. I'm sure the Summer camp dates were announced months ago as were the other summer activities. I'm sure he had plenty of time to develope a plan to earn Eagle by Summer Camp. It might have meant prioritizing his activities, but if it was that important, he should have.

The fact that the requirements do not specifically state that the signatures should be obtained in order does not mean that we can't insist that they are. BSA Advancement Requirements are not contract law where each clause is minutely described.

We are a character building organization. It's all about me has nothing to do with character. Make the Scout follow the established process and make this a character building experience with long term benefits, rather than bragging rights at Summer Camp.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby razor_strop » Thu May 27, 2010 1:26 pm

WeeWillie wrote:The fact that the requirements do not specifically state that the signatures should be obtained in order does not mean that we can't insist that they are. BSA Advancement Requirements are not contract law where each clause is minutely described.


I completely disagree with this statement. I believe BSA advancement policy is very clear on the topic of adding to or deleting from published requirements, regardless of what an adult volunteer may want a requirement to read. To think adults can do whatever they want so long as its not specifically addressed in policy, especially when it places an added burden on the Scout's path to advancement, is in my opinion completely contrary to the Scout Oath (to help other people at all times) and Law (Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Kind...you get the idea).

As for adults adjusting their schedules to attempt to support a Scout's advancement, I believe that if it is at all possible, that's exactly what adult volunteers should be doing. BSA is designed to support the youth membership as best it can, not toss them into a sea of administrative roadblocks to see who sinks and who swims.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Fri May 28, 2010 1:43 am

WeeWillie wrote:If the Eagle candidate wanted to earn Eagle before Summer Camp he should have adjusted his schedule to meet that objective without expecting Adults to jump through hula-hoops to see that it happens.

It's all about me has nothing to do with character.


His character is exemplary, and he's far from self-centered. We've all run into those types of boys -- I don't think I wrote anything to imply he was one of them. When a committee doesn't meet for three months, I don't see it as selfish at all to request that the adults make some accommodation.

It's all good. The DE is going to act as the mentor for the project.
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Re: Does it matter in what order signatures are obtained?

Postby jr56 » Fri May 28, 2010 3:41 pm

Commitee's should be meeting more often than once every 3 months since part of their job is to ensure that regular board of reviews are conveneed.
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