Is this Eagle Project really done?

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Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby Fibonacci » Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:01 pm

Scout W just completed his excellent Eagle Project. He had concrete pads built to go under a local park picnic tables, and even "stamped" local critter footprints into the concrete. He was definitely the leader, and he had several Scouts & adults attend his work parties.

Here is the problem. W did not do any fundraising before his project. He had planned to do some car washes, but the weather got ahead of him. So his parents loaned him the money for the concrete. He has every intention of paying them back, but hasn't done so yet. His mom is a Committee Member and shared his financial situation with the Committee at the last meeting.

I don't know if the Scoutmaster has signed off on the Eagle Project. I don't know if I'm just being picky, but it just doesn't seem like W is done with his project yet. If I were on his Board of Review, I would be uncomfortable passing him.

What do the experts say? I haven't been able to figure this one out with only my research.
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:08 pm

IMO it is over.He can fund raise and pay the parents back but If someone trys to stop it this will be overturned and the same result will happen.
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby Fibonacci » Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:11 pm

Thank you for your feedback. I just couldn't figure out if it was really done.
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:22 pm

The EBOR I think should ask for what plans he has to repay the loan that replaced his fund raisers. Make him write up the plan and submit it. If Scout w had planned a fund raiser and made 0 money and got money from parents it is the same as what happened.
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby evmori » Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:39 pm

Was fundraising part of his approved plan?
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:18 pm

The Scout needs to address what happened in his "Changes" section of his ES workbook. He had to have some kind of financial plan and he needs to show how/why he deviated from it. We have begun to ask for a Plan B financial plan (Mom & Dad Bank don't qualify) since scouts doing "building" type projects sometimes think that places like Lowes and Home Depot will just give them whatever they want.

It's interesting that the weather cooperated enough to pour concrete but not enough for him to do ANY fundraising??

The EBOR may ask him what kind of leadership did he show when he didn't do any fundraising. Why didn't he delay the project until he was ready with all the materials bought and paid for by his efforts?
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby Cowboy » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:31 pm

In my opinion: It is not done. He had to have had a financial plan in place. That could have been car washes, selling candy bars, or asking for donations, but it had to be included in his Eagle Plan (Step 3). If he has not completed the fund raising as described in the workbook (Approved Plan) he has not completed the project. The change that is acceptable is that he is doing the fund raising after the physical labor instead of before. I would not sign off until teh fund raising "as proposed" is completed.
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:16 pm

There is no BSA rule against parents donating toward Eagle projects.

However, the Scout should list the materials, their cost, and his parents donation, on page 11 of the Project Workbook.

The change in where the money came from for his materials should be included on page 12, where he lists any changes to the original plan, and tells why they were made.

How/if he plans on paying back his parents for their donation to the project is between him and them. Perhaps the Scout might consider getting a part time job.

I think that doing Troop fundraising after a project is finished, to pay off a "loan", is not a good idea.
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby Cowboy » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:51 pm

Who said "Troop" fundraising? I simply state that he should do the fund raising as proposed to complete the project. Without actually seeing the workbook, it is hard to tell how big of part his fundraising played in the leadership aspect. But: It was part of the project, therefor it should be completed. No, National does not have a rule against parents contributing or paying for a project, but that is a substantial change to the plan. I would not even try to run this past an EBOR until the fundraising portion was completed as proposed.
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby Billiken » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:21 am

Absolutely done.
The pads are under the picnic tables.
Period.

Just note it in the changes section.
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:21 pm

I'm with Cowboy here. It seems that he completely skipped part of the project -- the part that sucks and is difficult to do. I'm sure it's the rare Scout who actually likes the fundraising, but what a skill they learn!
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby evmori » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:27 pm

AquilaNegra2 wrote:I'm with Cowboy here. It seems that he completely skipped part of the project -- the part that sucks and is difficult to do. I'm sure it's the rare Scout who actually likes the fundraising, but what a skill they learn!



Until we know if fundraising was part of the approved project plan we don't know if this step was skipped.
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby alex gregory » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:16 pm

evmori wrote:
AquilaNegra2 wrote:I'm with Cowboy here. It seems that he completely skipped part of the project -- the part that sucks and is difficult to do. I'm sure it's the rare Scout who actually likes the fundraising, but what a skill they learn!



Until we know if fundraising was part of the approved project plan we don't know if this step was skipped.


Fundraising is not a requirement for any Eagle project. All that is required is explain the cost of materials and where the money came from. If the original plan was to get the funds through fundraising and the funds were obtained by some other means then that is simply a change to one component of the original plan. The project is completed. All Scout W has to do is note the change regarding how and where funds were obtained. Congratulations for completing your project!
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:01 pm

Anybody want to start the " Project Completed" vs " Project Approved" discussion?
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:22 pm

[quote=evmori]Until we know if fundraising was part of the approved project plan we don't know if this step was skipped.[/quote]
He had planned to do some car washes...
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:26 pm

In MHO the project isn't finished. To avoid "this kind of major change," I tell the candidate and his parent at our pre-approval meeting on the job site, about changes. Here's the story: If you are staining or painting some part(s) of your project, and the sponsor changes the color, no big deal . . . just list it in the "Changes." However, if you are building 10 picnic tables and they ask for 6 more, or if you change the method of your fundraising, that's a major change and you need to discuss it with me FIRST. Both require an altered "plan" that is not part of the original proposal. The proposal is like a contract, and should be treated as such, by both parties. I would NOT allow this to go to EBoR until the finances are completed and approved by his Eagle Mentor. Yes, parents do contribute to Eagle Projects, but are NOT expected to finance the whole thing. That's like having the parents buy the Eagle Award. What are we teaching these kids if we allow that, that Mom and Dad will always bail you out? I don't think so!
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:45 pm

"Changes After Approval
As you work on carrying out the project, you will probably have to make some changes from your plan. That is normal, and expected. The changes should be documented in the notes of journal you are keeping along the way. If the changes are significant enough that they change the scope of the project or the magnitude of the leadership you must provide, you should check with the four people who approved the project originally. You do not want to get to the Board of Review (who must approve the project as carried out) that you have done a nice community service project but it no longer qualifies as an Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project."


Of course this is "non-official" policy. From what we know from the original poster, this situation could fall under "the magnitude of the leadership you must provide".
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:53 pm

AMEN! The car washes this candidate indicated in his proposal would have required his leadership . . . setting up advertisement, supply buyer/finders, youth washer/dryers, $ takers, and adult supervision. Parent financing requires his asking only . . . no leadership there!
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Re: Is this Eagle Project really done?

Postby Fibonacci » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:18 pm

I really appreciate all the viewpoints expressed. I have not seen W's workbook, so I don't know what he wrote down about how he planned to fund his project. His mom said he had planned to do car washes, and my vague recollection is that is what he said when he presented his project to the Committee months ago, but I do not know what he wrote.

It seems that the trail to Eagle is full of learning opportunities for the adults in our troop as well as for the Scouts. Thank you for your assistance in my growth as a Scouter (and I mean that seriously, tho' is sounds a bit odd.)
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