Are previous sins recoverable?

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Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:30 pm

Here's an issue brought up here locally....

Scout was on Summer Camp staff last year (2008) and caught with his hand in the till while running the trading post. Scout was dismissed from the staff, apology made and restitution was made. No charges were filed. I heard it was less than $25 but don't know for sure.

Now it 2009 and he's completed all MBs, EP and POR and wants an EBOR. Troop committee knows history and is not sure what to do. I don't know if CC signed his application.

One thought was to have his EBOR at the District/Council level because it is thought that the TC will not pass him and it'll get appealed any way.

The Question for the Forum is are past sins fatal to a scout for Eagle?
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby deweylure » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:44 pm

I think a recovery can be made. Something happened at that time to cause the scout to go and do a stupid act. he was caught, realized the error he made , apologized and paid back the cash. It seems that this scout wants to continue otherwise he probably would have dropped out. This is one act that he will live with for the rest of his life. People Make Mistakes. I would consult the Advancement guide.

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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby Cowboy » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:55 am

This is really a matter for the Scoutmaster to decide. He (or She) is required to sign off on Scout Spirit. He must now decide if the Scout has shown Scout Spirit (including Honesty) in his daily life. I for one do not think that poor judgement in the past should follow a person forever. The SM must look at the Scout since that time. The CC also has to decide if he should sign off on the application. There is no blanket answer for this type of situation.
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby FrankJ » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:44 am

I think this is really situational specific. If this one one incident of a otherwise good scout, it should be forgiven. If it is part a pattern, then maybe not.
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby kwildman » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:10 am

WWJD? Your sins are forgiven, get up, go and sin no more. Remember that whatever measure we use to judge others will be used against us. Very easy for people to show moral relativism in cirucmstances like these. That is we know it is impossible to always live up to all the points of the scout law so we judge the actions of others by our own...my shortcomings are not as bad as what you did. The scout law is really a description of perfection for which we all fall short.

Is this a good kid who made a mistake or is this a bad kid who just got caught this time around. The decisions of the adults involved can affect the rest of this scout's life.
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby lifescoutforlife » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:48 am

kwildman wrote:WWJD? Your sins are forgiven, get up, go and sin no more. Remember that whatever measure we use to judge others will be used against us. Very easy for people to show moral relativism in cirucmstances like these. That is we know it is impossible to always live up to all the points of the scout law so we judge the actions of others by our own...my shortcomings are not as bad as what you did. The scout law is really a description of perfection for which we all fall short.

Is this a good kid who made a mistake or is this a bad kid who just got caught this time around. The decisions of the adults involved can affect the rest of this scout's life.

Very well said kwildman!
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby scoutaholic » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:41 am

I don't recall seeing anything in the Eagle requirements like, "Show a history of living the Scout Oath and Law perfectly for at least the last 20 years."

A single and/or minor infraction in a boys past should have nothing to do with his elegibility for Eagle. A pattern of problems, or a lifestyle contrary to living the standards may be a problem, but a minor infraction last year should not even need to be discussed. If your TC is likely to have an issue with this, maybe they need to look at their own 'Scout Spirit' and exclude themselves from this EBOR.
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:15 pm

scoutaholic wrote:I don't recall seeing anything in the Eagle requirements like, "Show a history of living the Scout Oath and Law perfectly for at least the last 20 years."

A single and/or minor infraction in a boys past should have nothing to do with his elegibility for Eagle. A pattern of problems, or a lifestyle contrary to living the standards may be a problem, but a minor infraction last year should not even need to be discussed. If your TC is likely to have an issue with this, maybe they need to look at their own 'Scout Spirit' and exclude themselves from this EBOR.


Actually the requirement is "Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life." So that covers the scout up until 18.

I think this Troop's Committee is wrestling with this situation since it is widely known in the troop and other scouts and parents are waiting and watching to see how this plays out. I'm not sure since I haven't spoken to any of the troop committee whether they view this as "minor".

I'm not sure what "maybe they need to look at their own 'Scout Spirit' " means. These folks are trying to do the right thing.
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:20 pm

Arrest MAde? Charges Filed? Found Guilty? or took plea? If charged as an adult would It have involved Jail Time?
If you answer yes to any of the above. You should know the answer
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby evmori » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:17 am

kwildman wrote:WWJD? Your sins are forgiven, get up, go and sin no more. Remember that whatever measure we use to judge others will be used against us. Very easy for people to show moral relativism in cirucmstances like these. That is we know it is impossible to always live up to all the points of the scout law so we judge the actions of others by our own...my shortcomings are not as bad as what you did. The scout law is really a description of perfection for which we all fall short.

Is this a good kid who made a mistake or is this a bad kid who just got caught this time around. The decisions of the adults involved can affect the rest of this scout's life.


I am a devout Christian, but it really galls me when people toss out the WWJD card at random! Did Jesus condone the sins - NO. He forgave them. And I think He expected they would not be committed again.

If this kid made a one time mistake & as stated made restitution, I would sit this boy down & have a man to man chat with him.
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby ThunderingWind » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:07 am

smtroop168 wrote:Here's an issue brought up here locally....

Scout was on Summer Camp staff last year (2008) and caught with his hand in the till while running the trading post. Scout was dismissed from the staff, apology made and restitution was made. No charges were filed. I heard it was less than $25 but don't know for sure.

Now it 2009 and he's completed all MBs, EP and POR and wants an EBOR. Troop committee knows history and is not sure what to do. I don't know if CC signed his application.

One thought was to have his EBOR at the District/Council level because it is thought that the TC will not pass him and it'll get appealed any way.

The Question for the Forum is are past sins fatal to a scout for Eagle?

Wait.........What is the TC doing holding the EBOR??? This BOR is supposed to be at the District or Council level NOT the Troop level.

So, the question that needs to be asked is: Does the SM and CC feel that the Scout has met the requirements and that they can sign thier name on the application?
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:10 am

ThunderingWind wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:Here's an issue brought up here locally....

Scout was on Summer Camp staff last year (2008) and caught with his hand in the till while running the trading post. Scout was dismissed from the staff, apology made and restitution was made. No charges were filed. I heard it was less than $25 but don't know for sure.

Now it 2009 and he's completed all MBs, EP and POR and wants an EBOR. Troop committee knows history and is not sure what to do. I don't know if CC signed his application.

One thought was to have his EBOR at the District/Council level because it is thought that the TC will not pass him and it'll get appealed any way.

The Question for the Forum is are past sins fatal to a scout for Eagle?

Wait.........What is the TC doing holding the EBOR??? This BOR is supposed to be at the District or Council level NOT the Troop level.

So, the question that needs to be asked is: Does the SM and CC feel that the Scout has met the requirements and that they can sign thier name on the application?


In our Council the EBORs are held at the troop level with District representation.
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby WeeWillie » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:06 am

Is this the 1st time he did this or the 1st time he got caught? What is his track record at school? How has he performed at meetings and outings? Does he even show up? How has he demonstrated remorse? Did he have a SMC immediately after the incident? What were the results? How willing are you to risk the good name and reputation of Scouting and Eagle Scout on this young man? How willing are you to face other Eagle Scouts? If you have reservations, then the answer should be obvious.

Giving the money back is not restitution.
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:51 pm

Had two scouts in this situation in our council. Each was found "not guilty", were in the wrong place at the wrong time, appologized to their units at a CoH, and went on with their scouting careers. Both made Eagle and went on to college, and are contributing members of their respective communities. People make mistakes, and kids DO STUPID THINGS, on a dare or whatever. Remember these are kids, as we once were. Did we do stupid things? I did. Now, the TC needs to look at everything this young man has accomplished. Then decide. And I agree, the SMC will play a VERY important role here.
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby kwildman » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:56 pm

evmori wrote:
kwildman wrote:WWJD? Your sins are forgiven, get up, go and sin no more. Remember that whatever measure we use to judge others will be used against us. Very easy for people to show moral relativism in cirucmstances like these. That is we know it is impossible to always live up to all the points of the scout law so we judge the actions of others by our own...my shortcomings are not as bad as what you did. The scout law is really a description of perfection for which we all fall short.

Is this a good kid who made a mistake or is this a bad kid who just got caught this time around. The decisions of the adults involved can affect the rest of this scout's life.


I am a devout Christian, but it really galls me when people toss out the WWJD card at random! Did Jesus condone the sins - NO. He forgave them. And I think He expected they would not be committed again.

If this kid made a one time mistake & as stated made restitution, I would sit this boy down & have a man to man chat with him.


Excuse me? What exactly is random about the WWJD comment? Did you not read anything past that? Your sins are forgiven, get up, go and sin no more. You are not the only Christian on this board.
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby Quailman » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:44 pm

I recall reading in another thread about a young man who did something that caused his Eagle Rank to be revoked. Whatever it was (Armed robbery?) was pretty serious. I suggest that you consider an offense before the rank is earned to what would you do after the rank is earned. If you'd revoke the Eagle Rank, then don't award it now. If it's not serious enough to revoke someone's rank later, then don't withhold it now. It's a matter of timing.
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby FrankJ » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:50 pm

If there is a way to revoke an eagle award. It must be in a top secret policy file. I have never seen or heard of it.

I take that back. I Googled the question Apparently the National Executive Board can. It happens almost never, and not for an every day kind of crime. This was a internet article. take it for what it worth.
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby evmori » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:04 am

kwildman wrote:
evmori wrote:
kwildman wrote:WWJD? Your sins are forgiven, get up, go and sin no more. Remember that whatever measure we use to judge others will be used against us. Very easy for people to show moral relativism in cirucmstances like these. That is we know it is impossible to always live up to all the points of the scout law so we judge the actions of others by our own...my shortcomings are not as bad as what you did. The scout law is really a description of perfection for which we all fall short.

Is this a good kid who made a mistake or is this a bad kid who just got caught this time around. The decisions of the adults involved can affect the rest of this scout's life.


I am a devout Christian, but it really galls me when people toss out the WWJD card at random! Did Jesus condone the sins - NO. He forgave them. And I think He expected they would not be committed again.

If this kid made a one time mistake & as stated made restitution, I would sit this boy down & have a man to man chat with him.


Excuse me? What exactly is random about the WWJD comment? Did you not read anything past that? Your sins are forgiven, get up, go and sin no more. You are not the only Christian on this board.


I read the entire thing and I know I am not the only Christian on the board. Did you read the rest of my response?
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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby cballman » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:46 am

The WWJD part of this topic is out of bounds. This needs to be stopped NOW. if we cant have a discussion without without getting upset and complety changing topics then we need to mature greatly. I will lock this topic when I deem, because of the wording of some post.

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Re: Are previous sins recoverable?

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:35 am

Thanks to all. I've forwarded your comments to our DAC for his consideration and discussion with the unit.

You can lock this one if you want too.
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