Scout supports Communism

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Scout supports Communism

Postby cad-guy » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:52 pm

Greetings everyone....I have a dilema about a current scout. This young man is extremely smart (book smart that is) and reads alot. He is the kind of kid who thinks he is smarter than everyone. He is a good kid, not getting into any trouble, but he has all of a sudden started talking about how great communism is. Everyone working, everyone eating, and he fails to hear any of us when we discuss the downfalls of communism. He has even go so far as not to say the Pledge of Allegience. This bothers me to no end, as I know that I will be asked to serve on his EBOR someday. What is a guy to do? Excuse myself from the BOR? I know the scoutmaster is aware of his recent political views. THis boy is still probably a year out from Eagle, but this has just been weighing on me and I wanted to see what othes thought. Wouldn't these views keep this young man from earning his eagle?
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby alex gregory » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:27 pm

Who made you the thought police? I don't think you should sit on this Scout's EBOR.

If you debate the Scout you will lose. Communism is not inherently atheistic. The Pledge of Allegiance does not require a rejection of commnism or any other political belief (to the contrary in this great nation you have the right to be a communist). Communism is basically a belief in an egalitarian, classless, stateless society where everybody own and controls the means of production and property - how is that prohibited by BSA?

I agree that Communism is a pretty dumb idea that has been proven not to work - but that's not the point.

Stay positive and be supportive. You know he is trying to get a rise out of you, and you're playing right into his game.

He's a kid. Today he is fascinated by Das Kapital - so what. Hopefully, tomorrow's flavor of the week is not Mein Kampf (in which case you probably should be worried).
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby Mrw » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:41 pm

I see no problem with where this kid is right now. At least he is thinking about things and questioning what he sees. He will eventually learn that his views won't work out well in real life, but he will be happier learning it on his own terms.

One of my son's college roommates asked, mid primary season last year, if there were any Republicans running. I find that level of uninformed far scarier than your scout.

Yes, we require that the boy say the Pledge when he earns his Scout patch, but nowhere do we require it be said after that. Allegiance to the country says nothing about not trying or wanting to change what one may see as shortcomings, presuming he is not advocating violent revolution of course.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby Cowboy » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:18 pm

If anything you should take the time to educate yourself more fully on communism so that you can discuss it with him on an equal footing. Keep in mind that Communism is not a political system. It is an economic system. His refusal to say the Pledge is either a direct attempt to get a rise out of you or a result of misinformation on his part. Take time to educate yourself and then educate him.
Reality check here: Our Democracy (the US of A) began a move from Capitalistic economy to socialism during the Great Depression. It has continued to be a socialistic economy and progressed further toward communism as the years went by. Keep your flame throwers in check-----Our current President actually leans very strongly toward communism. Evidence is to be found every morning on the news. Anyone catch the fact that the US Government will now own 70% of GM? That would be Communism.
Nothing wrong with free thinking. Even though I know (and most of the world has learned) that communism does not work, it is not my place to tell anyone what they can believe. It is my place to help a boy learn the truth and then let him decide what they want to support.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:30 am

Doesn't his refusal to say the Pledge of Allegiance disqualify him? Let's not forget the words "AND TO THE REPUBLIC". Communism and a republic are mutually exclusive. While I agree with Cowboy's assessment that BHO moves us ever closer to that direction, my concern would also be that Communism as we have seen it tends to exclude faith in a Supreme Being. I would probe more into what he believes.

And I'd want to be the FIRST one on his EBOR. The Eagle rank must be kept to an exclusive high standard or it means nothing.

(note: we are a Republic, *NOT* a democracy -- a lynch mob is a democracy)
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:40 am

And where does BSA state in ANY Eagle requirements - Communists need not apply?

Good Grief!
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:48 am

One might well argue that the basic tenets of communism also violate the Scout Oath (To help other people at all times) and the Scout Law (A Scout is Reverent - A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.) Communism flies in the face of several points of the law by its very nature or coercion -- A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

They're incompatible.

Scouting is not for everyone. It was never intended to be. Again, I would delve more deeply into this young man's espoused beliefs, specifically the dichotomy between communism and being reverent toward God.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby scoutaholic » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:09 am

Before you all go too far in bashing this boy and his oppinion of communism, you may want to understand it yourselves.

Communism is an economic system. It is not a political system, nor a religious system.

Communism does not exclude religion, In fact, if you know your religious history, the Apostles and the early Christian church lived a form of Communism. Several groups of very religious people have attempted to live in a communist economic communities.

Communism would not have to be mutually exclusive of a republic. In recent history, when communism is paired with a political system, that political system has been socialism, but that doesn't mean that other political systems could not work with a communist economic system.

Communism in itself does not violate the scout oath, nor any part of the scout law. It certainly does not voilate the 'Help other People at all times' portion as suggested above. The whole point of communism is to forget ones personal ambitions in favor of doing things for the good of everyone. To live successfully in such a community, one would have to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, etc. The reason most communist communities don't work is because people give in to their self-serving desires and forget the scouting values.

I am not an advocate for communism. I don't believe that the people of our society could make it work. However, those of you arguing against communism because of your preconceived and false understanding of it are only showing that you don't understand, rather than making any point that could help this young man to change his mind.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:15 am

Communism is not only an economic system. It's a political ideology.

The disciples did NOT practice communism. That is a very offensive statement to make. They practiced COMMUNITY. Voluntary altruism. Communism is not a voluntary state, and that altruism cannot exist within it. It is legalized theft by government. There is no opt-out. Your assertion that communism and a Republic (a nation governed by law, with limited government) could co-exist does not make sense, at best.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby evmori » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:33 am

scoutaholic wrote:Before you all go too far in bashing this boy and his oppinion of communism, you may want to understand it yourselves.

Communism is an economic system. It is not a political system, nor a religious system.

Communism does not exclude religion, In fact, if you know your religious history, the Apostles and the early Christian church lived a form of Communism. Several groups of very religious people have attempted to live in a communist economic communities.

Communism would not have to be mutually exclusive of a republic. In recent history, when communism is paired with a political system, that political system has been socialism, but that doesn't mean that other political systems could not work with a communist economic system.

Communism in itself does not violate the scout oath, nor any part of the scout law. It certainly does not voilate the 'Help other People at all times' portion as suggested above. The whole point of communism is to forget ones personal ambitions in favor of doing things for the good of everyone. To live successfully in such a community, one would have to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, etc. The reason most communist communities don't work is because people give in to their self-serving desires and forget the scouting values.

I am not an advocate for communism. I don't believe that the people of our society could make it work. However, those of you arguing against communism because of your preconceived and false understanding of it are only showing that you don't understand, rather than making any point that could help this young man to change his mind.


Maybe it's time for you to understand communism yourself scoutaholic. Communism in it's purest sense is everyone is equal. In practice, however, some are more equal than others & those who are more equal tend to oppress those who are less equal.

cad-guy,

Is this Scout in your unit? If so, you should not be sitting on his EBOR. And while I don't agree with communism there is nothing that prohibits communism in the BSA.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:51 am

cad-guy wrote:Greetings everyone....I have a dilema about a current scout. This young man is extremely smart (book smart that is) and reads alot. He is the kind of kid who thinks he is smarter than everyone. He is a good kid, not getting into any trouble, but he has all of a sudden started talking about how great communism is. Everyone working, everyone eating, and he fails to hear any of us when we discuss the downfalls of communism. He has even go so far as not to say the Pledge of Allegience. This bothers me to no end, as I know that I will be asked to serve on his EBOR someday. What is a guy to do? Excuse myself from the BOR? I know the scoutmaster is aware of his recent political views. THis boy is still probably a year out from Eagle, but this has just been weighing on me and I wanted to see what othes thought. Wouldn't these views keep this young man from earning his eagle?



Let's back up and focus. The question is whether this boy (age unknown) who thinks communism is great can keep him from making Eagle. Most likely not. He does have to complete the Cit in World MB which has the following requirement:

Do the following:
a. Discuss the differences between constitutional and nonconstitutional governments.
b. Name at least five different types of governments currently in power in the world.
c. Show on a world map countries that use each of these five different forms of government.

There is also an optional requirement under #7 where he has to research a human rights issue within a country:

Visit the Web site (With your parent/guardian's permission) of an international news organization or foreign government, OR examine a foreign newspaper available at your local library, bookstore, or newsstand. Find a news story about a human right realized in the United States that is not recognized in another country.


Maybe after he completes these two requirements and sees how communist countries approach different areas, he'll see it in a different light.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby kwildman » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:58 am

Just wondering where a kid would get ideas like this. Maybe he is reading the newspaper and seeing what is happening in our country. Government intervention in almost all aspects of American business including the recent buying of banks and GM. Just yesterday there was a very interesting article published in Pravda about the end of American capitalism. http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/107459-0/ . Kids can go to Walmart and get those fashionable Che Guevara t-shirts. I remember reading somewhere about a kid that was sent home for wearing a shirt that had Jesus on it because it was deemed offensive but a kid can wear the Che shirt because it was freedom of speech.

I am not trying to start a political debate, just saying that there are enough mixed signals out there to thoroughly confuse a young boy.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby cad-guy » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:46 am

looks like I stirred it up...
I just think of the values that scouting is to instill upon boys. Respect....Good Behavior.....honesty....
I have friends in communist countries spreading the gospel. They are under fear of being arrested. I tend to think that Communisim is "Anti-American" while Boy Scouts OF AMERICA is "Pro-American" Yes he has the freedom, Thank God, to be communist if he wants.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby Mrw » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:27 am

There was a community of German (?) settlers that moved to Ohio in the early 1820's. They came here looking for the freedom to live their religious views whih included living in a communistic community. They collectively live a celibate life for several years after arriving so they could earn enough together to pay for the land they bought and provide transport for the rest of the community left temporarily behind (by hand-digging a section of the Ohio to Erie Canal).

After that point, they lived money-free in their own community, pretty much equally, until about 1900. The remains of the community eventually dwindled after that. The community was called Zoar and most of the buildings are now run as a museum.

Viewed that way, communism could look pretty good to a kid who is currently seeing where our collective greed has gotten us today. I expect that as he learns more, he will figure out why it worked okay on a samll scale like that, but is doomed to failure on a larger scale.

Just wait until he gets his first paycheck and finds out how much is going to social security and medicare and I bet his views will start to change! He may not be realizing yet how much of our hard-earned dollars go towards funding entitlements already.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:07 pm

The theory of Communism is not new. It was not invented by Marx. In 360 BC, Plato wrote about a communal system in The Republic. Many religious groups have, for thousands of years, practiced a form of Communism where they hold no personal property, use no money, and work for the good of all.

Cad-guy, would you prefer young people who do not read, who do not question, who do not think for themselves, who do not learn and grow? Would you prefer young people who only believe as you believe, think what you want them to think, and do as you tell them to do?

Personally, I prefer young people to read, and question. There is nothing wrong with this young man learning about, and experimenting with, different socioeconomic views. Even ones we might disagree with. His views will (most likely) change as he gets older, and learns, and experiences more. That is what growing up is all about. It is a good thing.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby cad-guy » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:34 pm

nothing wrong with questioning or experimenting. But when this young man starts to "diss" the USA, this is when I have a problem. Like I said...this is a good boy.....I think he is just trying to be different.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby Quailman » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:06 pm

He probably just read "Walden Two" by B.F. Skinner, or some similar treatment of communal living, for English class. If he's still "a year out" from Eagle, he'll probably deny having felt this way about Communism by then. Of course, by then you might be asking about whether or not a Pagan or a Wiccan can be considered reverent.

I don't see any BSA requirement about embracing a particular view of forms of government (or economic systems). I say stop trying to convince him that Communism = bad and he'll stop talking about it anyway. But there's nothing wrong with developing a working knowledge of alternative economic/political systems.
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Re: Scout supports Communism

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:08 pm

I belive I am Locking this. EVerything that can be said has been. WIthin Reason
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