Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:53 pm

FrankJ wrote:As you realize, my theoretical answers to the questions were not meant to imply that is the case, just that you do not know the answers until the questions were asked.

Around here Lowes & HD are such large targets that they do not contribute large sums to any one eagle project. The individual stores seem to do what they can. Maybe the scout did not find that out until after the project was started & had to find other sources. If the contributor was "anonymous" just to hide that he was a relative, to me, would be a bigger issue than the project being financed by a relative. By itself this does not come close to a reason to deny advancement.


I'm with you Frank...no implications taken. I have no problem with anonymous donors. The point is that I feel he knew exactly where he was going to get his materials, yet chose to show Lowes in his plan. No reason to deny advancement but as part of the whole story, certainly raises concerns over the execution of his Leadership project.

evmori wrote:I don't think the donor wanting to be anonymous should even come into play.

As far as everything else, I would focus on how he lead this group of what appears to be relatives. I get a feeling this could be a very interesting BOR!!!!


I agree. I know each EP and scout is different but when I see other scouts bust their tails to do their EP and this one is given their project by Uncle A, materials by Uncle B and work done by mostly relatives, I can see the EBOR having significant heartburn with the Leadership aspect.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby Bill Pitcher » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:00 am

To smtroop168: AMEN! All of this should have been discussed by the AC member who signed the proposal phase. I always meet with the Eagle candidate and his parent(s) at the job site and go over the details after the scout has walked me through the project. When I see excessive adult participation planned, I want to know who and why. I have yet seen the need for "so much family and/or adult participation" (I know many of you say it doesn't matter . . . but it does). This scout you mention is getting his Eagle handed to him by his family. A candidate also needs to showcase his communication skills by enlisting fellow scouts and "youth friends" to help him and for him to lead (plus two adult coverage). Rare is it when a teenager can lead adults.
As I mentioned in another thread, I visit the job site throughout the project and I get a handle on who is actually running it. Someone above says the AC person doesn't get out to see the project at all. Even when finished? That person should be replaced! How do they know the boy (or girl if a Sea Scout Quatermaster candidate) actually did the project? Years ago an aquaintence told me of one candidate turning in a completed workbook . . . AND NEVER DID THE PROJECT! He faked the whole thing (yeah, a scout is trustworthy).
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby evmori » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:04 am

Someone above says the AC person doesn't get out to see the project at all. Even when finished? That person should be replaced!


My son's Eagle projects was to build kestral hawk boxes for the PA Game Commision. The were to be placed in a remote area 1 1/2 hours from our district. And their placement was widely spread. Our DAC never saw the results of the project.


How do they know the boy (or girl if a Sea Scout Quatermaster candidate) actually did the project?


Pictures Pictures Pictures! And let's not forget the required letter from the organization the project was done for. Can these be forged? Sure can, but it's gonna take a lot of work & effort!
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby Mrw » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:12 pm

I have never seen a district advancement person at one of our Eagle projects and our most recent Eagle (last week EBOR) did his project while home on spring break from the local boarding school he attends. Home is Singapore! And plenty of scout labor used from the old troop there before he transferred to our troop as he is in our area most of the year.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:52 pm

Bill Pitcher wrote:To smtroop168: AMEN! All of this should have been discussed by the AC member who signed the proposal phase.


Actually it was. The EP proposal listed friends and family as workforce but no indication that it was going to be so adult heavy. The cost of the project was discussed as it was $1500 and his plan shows the source as Lowes with no indication that the material would be provided through a company that wanted to remain anonymous.

Our council rules do not require the District rep to attend the project either as pre or post work. We have too many to do that anyway. Of course you have to know when the project is going to be worked on to be there and none of the troop adults (except Mom) was there.

We'll have a few new Lessons Learned to add to the list at the next DAC meeting.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby Bill Pitcher » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:21 pm

We could go around and around with this, eg: pictures could be of someome else's hawk boxes, national doesn't "require a letter . . .", only some councils do, (ours does) etc. I still feel seeing is believing and I want to see the before, during, and after . . . no matter how far I have to go.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby evmori » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:32 am

Bill Pitcher wrote:We could go around and around with this, eg: pictures could be of someome else's hawk boxes, national doesn't "require a letter . . .", only some councils do, (ours does) etc. I still feel seeing is believing and I want to see the before, during, and after . . . no matter how far I have to go.


Not if the Scout has pictures of all phases of the project with him in them. And a letter of completion is required.

I would agree seeing the actual project is the best way to go but there are times when this just isn't feasible.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby FrankJ » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:44 am

We could go around and around with this, eg: pictures could be of someome else's hawk boxes, national doesn't "require a letter . . .", only some councils do, (ours does) etc. I still feel seeing is believing and I want to see the before, during, and after . . . no matter how far I have to go.


Not to go around & around on this. :) But if as district advancement chair, you are not happy with how the project is carried out, what do you do? The project has been approved & there is no place on the project work book for district approval (or council) on how the project is carried out or project completion.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:21 pm

Bill...Curious...have you seen a scout turned down at an EBOR for his project? If so, what was the remedy...do another?
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby evmori » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:30 pm

FrankJ wrote:
We could go around and around with this, eg: pictures could be of someome else's hawk boxes, national doesn't "require a letter . . .", only some councils do, (ours does) etc. I still feel seeing is believing and I want to see the before, during, and after . . . no matter how far I have to go.


Not to go around & around on this. :) But if as district advancement chair, you are not happy with how the project is carried out, what do you do? The project has been approved & there is no place on the project work book for district approval (or council) on how the project is carried out or project completion.


Now that is an excellent point even if we are spinning around! And

Bill...Curious...have you seen a scout turned down at an EBOR for his project? If so, what was the remedy...do another?


is an excellent question!
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby wagionvigil » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:33 pm

Ed have you ever had one? ALso MAtt You ever? I have been doing this for ever and have never seen or heard of a kid from my council turned down because of a project. Cannot see iot happening.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby FrankJ » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:49 pm

An eagle candidate being turned for any reason at the EBOR is a rare event. In our district it is less than 5% & probably less than 1%. The subject came up at the last EBOR I sat on (not about the current candidate). The district guy said that the one board that he sat on that turned down the scout was based on the eagle project. It was upheld on appeal.

I have yet to sit on a EBOR that there was any real question about the candidates qualifications. I also have not won the lottery.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby evmori » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:18 pm

wagionvigil wrote:Ed have you ever had one? ALso MAtt You ever? I have been doing this for ever and have never seen or heard of a kid from my council turned down because of a project. Cannot see iot happening.



No wagon I have not. I have never heard of a kid getting turned down because of his project. The only reason an EBOR could turn down an Eagle Scout candidate down bsed on his project is if he completely changed the project and never got it approved or did a project completely different from the on initially approved.

The district guy said that the one board that he sat on that turned down the scout was based on the eagle project. It was upheld on appeal.


What about the Eagle project got this Scout turned down?
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:53 pm

wagionvigil wrote:Ed have you ever had one? ALso MAtt You ever? I have been doing this for ever and have never seen or heard of a kid from my council turned down because of a project. Cannot see iot happening.


Not personally but we just had one in the council where the EBOR decision was to turn the scout down after he really could not explain how he LED the execution of project. The three troop CMs on the board felt that the parents did all the work and the scout was a casual observer. Our DAC was on the board and said he felt the same way, but really didn't need to vote as the other members pretty much led the discusion. I don't know if there is an appeal in process or not.

This, if for no other reason, should be why the troop leadership attends EPs and not have the parents (even if on the committee) as the only "official BSA" person there. The reason is obvious why the parent would not them there.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby FrankJ » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:57 pm

What about the Eagle project got this Scout turned down?


To honest I do not remember exactly. It was a casual conversation before the EBOR & it occurred well in the past. I do recall that was a major issue & not a detail. I think it was about leadership.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby Bill Pitcher » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:18 pm

Now that you've asked, I've sat in on three EBoR's where the candidate was turned down. Remember, the EBoR must determine if the project was carried out AS PROPOSED. Here are the reasons these scouts were turned down:

1. A boy had a 6 day project which he only showed up 2 days for. His parents ran it! Was turned down, appealed, and lost. (yes, the organization and SM signed it . . . parents were "influential!)

2. A boy couldn't get an educational reference, so he forged a teacher's signature. I taught Mathematics (35 yrs.) in the school he attended, and the supposed teacher signature belonged to a good friend of mine. I had that teacher fill out a hall pass and compared the two signatures at the EBoR. Needless to say they didn't match. We through him out . . . NO appeal!

3. As mentioned in the thread: Did a candidate ever get turned down . . . I just had one where the candidate had a 6 month extension granted in July '08, and started the project in Nov. '08. Did only about 35 - 40 % by Jan. '09 since it got too cold. Plus, he didn't do all of requirement #6; Attach to the application . . . Unanomous decision to deny. SM and CC should NEVER have signed off on this one. No appeal here, either!

Things do go wrong. They were all mentored, scout and parents advised throughout the process . . . but to no avail. You can only lead the horse to water!


Ed: By the way, there is no National requirement that a "Completion Letter" be included. Not in the 20 years I have been an Eagle Chairman on the AC. Have you seen it somewhere that I missed that one? Our council DOES expect one . . . but it isn't a National Requirement that I am aware of. They only have to sign the last page of the workbook. Can anyone help us with this one?
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby evmori » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:14 am

None of your examples have anything to do with final project approval, Bill. Two of the three are about a Scout trying to slide by & getting caught.

Good point about the letter. You are correct, one is not required.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby Quailman » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:48 pm

I helped with an Eagle project yesterday. It involved rebuilding a shelter at a camp for youth organizations in a county west of here. Several scouts helped Saturday clearing the tree that had fallen and the old shelter, and setting new posts. We framed out the roof and affixed the corrugated sheet metal sections.

I was watching the dad, wondering if he would be running the show, but he didn't at all. It made me proud to be part of this young man's effort. I tried to remember not to see something that needed to be done and just do it myself. I asked the scout what he wanted me to work on next. He knew I was coming with my two sons, one of whom has CP and couldn't be on a ladder or do heavy lifting, so he had some work reserved for him (much to his chagrin). As soon as the cutting was done, my son was assigned to load all the power tools, sawhorses, etc. on the trailer and clean up the work area.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby jr56 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:21 pm

Heard of a boy being turned down at his Eagle BOR in my council. The project was building some benches for a park, when the workup was turned in, only the boy and his father had done all the work. The appeal was upheld, he had to do another project.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby Cowboy » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:37 am

Not trying to highjack this one, but this does kind of fall into this discussion. If you have followed my sons ELSP "saga" you will see a thread going here.
One of our other Life Scouts completed his ELSP last week. A very good and well thought out project. He installed new flag poles (added two) at the county fairgrounds. A lot of work and a lot of help. At one point early on, I pulled him to the side and reminded him that the project is very good, and it would get done, but he needed to make sure and direct the workers. He had many people who knew what to do, and was not assigning tasks very much. After that he got back on track and led the project fully. He had an official dedication with the Troop, workers, and three American Legion posts represented. Many spectators showed up also. While I was sitting waiting for the program to start the DAC walked over and spoke to the young mans grandmother, unaware that I was sitting there. She stated that the Scout was exemplary (very true) and that she had no problem with him becoming Eagle. She stated that she was scheduling his EBOR for about 2 weeks from now. Wait for it:
I still have not signed off on 2 of his ERMB's. Not that I won't, he has completed the work, but has not brought the cards to me yet, nor has he discussed the work with me. I also know that he has not yet participated in his SMC as our SM is on vacation, and will not be back until next week (when my son has his SMC). She also indicated that SHE will be selecting the EBOR, not our Troop AC.
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