Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Information to help with the rank of Eagle Scout.

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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby alex gregory » Fri May 29, 2009 2:17 pm

If BSA wants to make Eagle projects more strenuous I'm sure they can figure out how to do that. Troop involvement is not currently required, although it sure seems like the right thing to do.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby Cowboy » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:24 am

In my opinion: Adult, PROFESSIONALS, can be the best determinant of a leader. In my experience (My son & 1 other ELSP) a 14 year old who can lead a professional or adult group is a better showing than an 18 year old who can give direction to 12 year old Tenderfeets. The big question always comes down to: Did he actually lead or did he let someone else do it? The make up of the workforce should simply help the EBOR determine what questions to ask?
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby evmori » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:05 pm

smtroop168 wrote:
WeeWillie wrote:The SM signed off that the project is approved and that the project is completed. That includes manpower requirements. If I saw a project with 3 scouts and 16 adults I would be concerned . I would ask some very pointed questions. I would also speak with the parents/guardians and make it clear it is the Scout's project, not theirs. I would also inform the Scout and parents that either myself or an ASM would be on site as an observer to insure the project was Scout lead. That isn't adding to the requirement, that is insuring the requirement was met. Forewarned is forearmed.

Not a problem in T480 and we have great Scout lead projects.


Wee...if you look at my earlier posts you'll see that the "adult heavy" workforce makeup was not in the project write up. It just says friends and family but the TP shows the 3 and 16.

The ESLP book signatures just say "planned, developed and carried out'....Project Approval comes at the BOR.

This is the only case I have ever personally seen like this and it's one of mine.

I'll leave it up to the EBOR to sort it out.



Project approval come at what BOR? The project must be approved by the DAC prior to any work being started!
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby FrankJ » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:49 pm

Project approval come at what BOR? The project must be approved by the DAC prior to any work being started!


The project must be approved prior to starting, true, no BOR required. How the project was carried out & was it successfully completed subject to the EBOR. It is in the advancement policy book. (phrased better than what I wrote.)
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby evmori » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:13 am

FrankJ wrote:
Project approval come at what BOR? The project must be approved by the DAC prior to any work being started!


The project must be approved prior to starting, true, no BOR required. How the project was carried out & was it successfully completed subject to the EBOR. It is in the advancement policy book. (phrased better than what I wrote.)


Ummm, the project doesn't get signed off by the EBOR. It must be completed before the Scout can have an EBOR. The approval is up front!
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby FrankJ » Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:00 pm

Ummm, the project doesn't get signed off by the EBOR. It must be completed before the Scout can have an EBOR. The approval is up front!


The project idea is approved before worked is started. The eagle project workbook is signed as completed by the scout, SM (or equal), and the benefiting org. Final approval on how the project was carried out is up to the EBOR. This is in the eagle workbook & The BSA advancement policies & procedures. If you are doing it different, you must be using local rules.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby wagionvigil » Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:32 pm

FrankJ wrote:
Ummm, the project doesn't get signed off by the EBOR. It must be completed before the Scout can have an EBOR. The approval is up front!


The project idea is approved before worked is started. The eagle project workbook is signed as completed by the scout, SM (or equal), and the benefiting org. Final approval on how the project was carried out is up to the EBOR. This is in the eagle workbook & The BSA advancement policies & procedures. If you are doing it different, you must be using local rules.



Local Rules Do Not apply No such animal BSA
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby evmori » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:24 am

wagionvigil wrote:
FrankJ wrote:
Ummm, the project doesn't get signed off by the EBOR. It must be completed before the Scout can have an EBOR. The approval is up front!


The project idea is approved before worked is started. The eagle project workbook is signed as completed by the scout, SM (or equal), and the benefiting org. Final approval on how the project was carried out is up to the EBOR. This is in the eagle workbook & The BSA advancement policies & procedures. If you are doing it different, you must be using local rules.



Local Rules Do Not apply No such animal BSA


So correct wagon!

There is no place for anyone from the the district or council to sign the project is complete! The Scout, Scoutmaster & representative for the benefiting organization sign to indicate the project is completed.

The Advancement Policies & Procedures states
Although the project idea must be approved before work is begun, the board of review must determine the manner in which the project was carried out.


I can see how the idea the EBoR "approves" the project would come from this statement but that's not what is stated. The EBoR is tasked with making sure the project was carried out the way it was approved. If changes were made, they must be noted.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby FrankJ » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:00 am

We are playing with words here. If the the EBOR must approve the manner project in which the project is carried out, then the project is not final until they say it is. This does not mean they should be changing the scope of the project or deciding if the original concept is "worthy" or not. But if there are questions on if the scout should leadership during the project, (which is the topic of this thread), it is theirs to ask. Should the scout get to point before the questions are asked & answered? I would say generally say no, but if the scout or the family pushes, the system will allow it, and we are supposed to work in the system.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby evmori » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:18 am

Yeah they can ask how the project was completed, how the Scout showed leadership, etc. but they are in no way approving the completed project. As long as the project was completed per the initial approval and any changes are noted, the project is complete.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby Bill Pitcher » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:34 am

Just because the project is "signed off" by the sponsor, SM and TC, DOES NOT IN ANYWAY guarantee that the Council will sing off at the EBoR, indicating that the project was completted "as proposed." (See my recent entry in the thread: "A scout is not successful . . ."). In that case, the boy was well liked and his father held a large profile position in county politics, so NO one wanted to "rock the boat," even though the boy DID NOT FINISH his project "as proposed." Almost half of it wasn't done! Hence, the EBoR has the final say, not those who signed page 13 in the ESLSPW, and he wasn't granted the Eagle! The advancement committee has to do it's job (and homework) and find out what is going on. This is why I visit EVERY job site of an Eagle project before, during work days, and after I get the paperwork requesting an EBoR.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:43 am

IN our council the EBOR has nothing to do with the Project. Once Approved and Signed off on by everyone involved it goes with the application to the service center for verification of all awards etc by someone at the center. The CE in our case reviews the project. In other councils they may assign a DE etc to review it. When it comes back to the District Eagle Chair he callsfor the EBOR with the Scout. We do look over the pictures etc. but cannot refuse his advancement because we may not like what was done.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby FrankJ » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:59 am

It seems that most of the time a EBOR is something between an early COH & a roast. Which perhaps is how it should be since issues should be dealt with long before the EBOR. BUT this is the highest award that BSA offers & the EBOR is the last chance to review the scout. The people sitting on the board owe to scouting & owe it to the scout to be sure the scout has the qualities & accomplishments that make him worthy of the honor. The BSA advancement policies & procedures manual pretty much says that. Having said that of the relatively few EBORs I have sat on, I have yet to have come close to voting no.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby evmori » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:30 pm

Bill Pitcher wrote:Just because the project is "signed off" by the sponsor, SM and TC, DOES NOT IN ANYWAY guarantee that the Council will sing off at the EBoR, indicating that the project was completted "as proposed." (See my recent entry in the thread: "A scout is not successful . . ."). In that case, the boy was well liked and his father held a large profile position in county politics, so NO one wanted to "rock the boat," even though the boy DID NOT FINISH his project "as proposed." Almost half of it wasn't done! Hence, the EBoR has the final say, not those who signed page 13 in the ESLSPW, and he wasn't granted the Eagle! The advancement committee has to do it's job (and homework) and find out what is going on. This is why I visit EVERY job site of an Eagle project before, during work days, and after I get the paperwork requesting an EBoR.



What you are citing is a project that was not completed the way it was initially approved! In this case yes the EBoR has the right to turn the Scout down for the rank of Eagle. That is within their right but that doesn't translate to the EBoR approving the final project. If the EBoR approves the final project, where in the project workbook do they sign?
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby FrankJ » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:48 pm

On the second to last line of the Eagle Scout application?
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby evmori » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:43 pm

FrankJ wrote:On the second to last line of the Eagle Scout application?



Do you mean this line?

BSA LOCAL COUNCIL CERTIFICATION. According to the records of this council, the applicant is a registered member of this unit and this application is approved as accurate.


which is on the Eagle Scout Rank Application

My question was where in the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project workbook do they sign?
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby FrankJ » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:05 pm

No, I meant the signature line after this.
EAGLE SCOUT BOARD OF REVIEW. The applicant appeared before the Eagle Scout board of review on this date, and this application was approved


They do not sign the eagle work book. But as for as the project goes, they give the final approval.

This is starting to get repetitive so I will stop now.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:31 pm

Nothing says project in the above.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby evmori » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:31 am

wagionvigil wrote:Nothing says project in the above.


Exactly my point. The approval for the project is given at the onset. If a Scout does something different than what was approved at the onset, he may be denied the rank of Eagle because the project he completed was not what was approved. There is no final approval for an Eagle project. If there was, there would be a place for the EBoR to sign in the workbook.

The project is only one of many things a Scout must complete to earn Eagle. The signature on this
EAGLE SCOUT BOARD OF REVIEW. The applicant appeared before the Eagle Scout board of review on this date, and this application was approved
line indicates the Scout has met all the requirements for the rank of Eagle, not approval of his project.
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Re: Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workforce Makeup

Postby wagionvigil » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:36 am

Ed we all know that some districts and councils do what they want even if it is against policy. My hope is that are Friend Bob starts cracking down on this crap. He has started with all the online training so people cannot say they did not have time to take it and the new medical.
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