Advice for Leadership Problem

Information to help with the rank of Eagle Scout.

Moderators: Site Admin, Moderators

Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby ashbrand » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:19 am

I have a scout who has completed all requirements for the Eagle rank, except for #4, serving actively in a position of leadership. The family moved away a couple of years ago and still drives him back for meetings about twice monthly. I have created 3 positions for him since earning Life, all which he has failed to show leadership in. He’s a great kid -- just doesn't step up to the plate.

Another concern is communication, which is almost exclusively with the parents – not the scout. We have discussed both issues in SM conferences, and he just looks at me.

I recently assigned an ASM to this problem, hoping he would be more successful than I, to lay out the specific leadership expectations, to stay in contact with him twice weekly and to document his progress. There has been time and opportunity for improvement, but it isn’t there.

I have been given a deadline to "get his eagle" due to the expense in driving back and forth (and I understand the expense involved). The parents do not agree with my leadership assessment, as they are convinced he shows leadership at school and church in his new community. I have suggested that he find a local troop where he can show leadership and finish up, but there "isn't a good one there."

It is more than 6 months until his 18th birthday, so there’s still time for a solution. What am I doing wrong? How do I resolve this situation without hurting the boy?

Frustrated SM
ashbrand
Scout
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:46 pm

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby wagionvigil » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:31 am

YOu are doing Nothig wrong. The parents seem to think you have the ability to change the requirement and you do not. Either he meets #4 as written or he does not get Eagle.
BTW welcome to the forum
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear, You're a Meal!"
wagionvigil
Counselor
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:50 am

If you want to try one more time, since it seems that it is the parents leading this charge, I would suggest you do something like the following -

Have a SM conference with both the Scout and his parents. Explain to them that it is not up to you to "get his eagle", it is all up to him.

Explain that leadership in school, church, and the community, while wonderful, does not complete the requirement for Eagle. The BSA insists that all requirements be fulfilled as written, without any changes. The requirement states that he must serve for 6 months in a Troop position of responsibility. The only options for this POR are - Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, or instructor.

Go over with all of them each of the past POR's the Scout has held and exactly how he failed to meet the requirements for each. Then assign him one last POR, explain to the Scout and his parents exactly what is expected in the job, and that the rest is up to him.

BTW - Has he done his Eagle Project yet?
Nuts4Scouts
Eagle
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:17 am
Location: Des Plaines Valley

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:33 am

ashbrand wrote:I have been given a deadline to "get his eagle" due to the expense in driving back and forth (and I understand the expense involved). The parents do not agree with my leadership assessment, as they are convinced he shows leadership at school and church in his new community. I have suggested that he find a local troop where he can show leadership and finish up, but there "isn't a good one there."

It is more than 6 months until his 18th birthday, so there’s still time for a solution. What am I doing wrong? How do I resolve this situation without hurting the boy?


You've been given a deadline to "get his eagle"?????????? Are you kidding?

Give us a few more details on what PORs you gave him, why and if you documented removal prior to his 6 month clock was met. 3 positions in 6 months since Life? If he served 2 months in each, then he's met the requirement..the POR does not have to be the same one for six months.

You'll find that there are lots of folks on the forum who will help you but we need as much detail as we can get to assess the issue and give you tangible solutions. Cheers
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby WVBeaver05 » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:54 pm

smtroop168 wrote:Give us a few more details on what PORs you gave him, why and if you documented removal prior to his 6 month clock was met. 3 positions in 6 months since Life? If he served 2 months in each, then he's met the requirement..the POR does not have to be the same one for six months.

You have a point there. In my discussions with Leaders who have had the PTC Advancement Training I have found that until removed from a POR the time counts. That means that we have to monitor performance, counsel to come up to standards, and remove if necessary, but the time that those things are going on the Scout is accumulating time in the POR.

Makes it very important for leaders to pay attention and take appropriate actions.

YiS
Wayne

Scoutmaster Troop34
Roundtable Commissioner
Eagle Scout - 1973
Wood Badge Beaver - 2005
WVBeaver05
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:17 am
Location: Buckskin Council - WV

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby evmori » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:18 am

Been given a "deadline"! :lol: :lol:

It makes no difference what POR's this Scout has been given, He hasn't done them!

Someone posted having a SM Conference with the Scout & his parents. I think this is a good idea. And I think it should be a one-sided conferences - the SM spelling out exactly what their son MUST complete in order to EARN his Eagle. I would also explain no one is GIVEN an Eagle. And also explain the only one with a deadline is the Scout, since he is the one EARNING the award.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:50 am

evmori wrote:Been given a "deadline"! :lol: :lol:

It makes no difference what POR's this Scout has been given, He hasn't done them!

Someone posted having a SM Conference with the Scout & his parents. I think this is a good idea. And I think it should be a one-sided conferences - the SM spelling out exactly what their son MUST complete in order to EARN his Eagle. I would also explain no one is GIVEN an Eagle. And also explain the only one with a deadline is the Scout, since he is the one EARNING the award.


What I saying is that as soon as "assigned" any of the PORs, his clock starts. So without careful tracking, he could complete the requirement without having "done" the PORs. If he was assigned as the Historian and never takes a picture of an event, he gets credit. We've debated this before.

Anyway...just another thought...why is the SM creating PORs? The SPL is supposed to pick his staff. For Star and Life the SM can assign a leadership project vice POR but not for Eagle.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby WeeWillie » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:08 pm

You are not required to give him a 4th chance at completing his POR. Does he epitomize the Scout Oath and Law? "On my honor I will do my best" A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, courteous What message are you sending to the Scout? Other Scouts in you troop?

One of our responsibilities as leaders is to uphold the good name and reputation of Scouting and Eagle Scouts for past, present, and future Scouts / Eagle Scouts?

When we reward non-performance we are punishing performance because both receive the same benefits without the same effort.
Mike Wilson
MBC, Cochise District, Catalina Council, Sierra Vista, AZ
WeeWillie
Eagle
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 11:40 pm
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby smtroop168 » Sun May 03, 2009 5:19 pm

Where did Ashbrand go?
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby evmori » Mon May 04, 2009 7:32 am

smtroop168 wrote:
evmori wrote:Been given a "deadline"! :lol: :lol:

It makes no difference what POR's this Scout has been given, He hasn't done them!

Someone posted having a SM Conference with the Scout & his parents. I think this is a good idea. And I think it should be a one-sided conferences - the SM spelling out exactly what their son MUST complete in order to EARN his Eagle. I would also explain no one is GIVEN an Eagle. And also explain the only one with a deadline is the Scout, since he is the one EARNING the award.


What I saying is that as soon as "assigned" any of the PORs, his clock starts. So without careful tracking, he could complete the requirement without having "done" the PORs. If he was assigned as the Historian and never takes a picture of an event, he gets credit. We've debated this before.

Anyway...just another thought...why is the SM creating PORs? The SPL is supposed to pick his staff. For Star and Life the SM can assign a leadership project vice POR but not for Eagle.


Yeah his clock starts when his POR is assigned. if you give this Scout a clear definition of what the POR entails and what is expected then it makes no difference that his clock has started. When his clock stops, he either did or didn't complete the POR as was laid out.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby smtroop168 » Mon May 04, 2009 10:48 am

evmori wrote:Yeah his clock starts when his POR is assigned. if you give this Scout a clear definition of what the POR entails and what is expected then it makes no difference that his clock has started. When his clock stops, he either did or didn't complete the POR as was laid out.


And that's the problem...POR assignment and execution of duties are not "managed". The "layout" for each POR is already defined by BSA. The "serving actively" part of the requirement and POR execution is what needs to be monitored by the SPL who assigned the scout to be on his team (boy-led...right?) If he hits the 4 or 6 month clock and no action has been taken to tell the scout that he hasn't performed his POR, the requirement is completed. This is harder for the non-Leadership PORs than the SPL, ASPL or PL ones as the Chaplain's Aide, Librarian or Historian are "gimme" positions to complete the requirement.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby evmori » Mon May 04, 2009 11:33 am

smtroop168 wrote:
evmori wrote:Yeah his clock starts when his POR is assigned. if you give this Scout a clear definition of what the POR entails and what is expected then it makes no difference that his clock has started. When his clock stops, he either did or didn't complete the POR as was laid out.


And that's the problem...POR assignment and execution of duties are not "managed". The "layout" for each POR is already defined by BSA. The "serving actively" part of the requirement and POR execution is what needs to be monitored by the SPL who assigned the scout to be on his team (boy-led...right?) If he hits the 4 or 6 month clock and no action has been taken to tell the scout that he hasn't performed his POR, the requirement is completed. This is harder for the non-Leadership PORs than the SPL, ASPL or PL ones as the Chaplain's Aide, Librarian or Historian are "gimme" positions to complete the requirement.


No it's not complete. If he did nothing for the 4-6 month period then he didn't fulfill the requirement.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby smtroop168 » Mon May 04, 2009 12:21 pm

evmori wrote:No it's not complete. If he did nothing for the 4-6 month period then he didn't fulfill the requirement.
smtroop168 wrote:
evmori wrote:Yeah his clock starts when his POR is assigned. if you give this Scout a clear definition of what the POR entails and what is expected then it makes no difference that his clock has started. When his clock stops, he either did or didn't complete the POR as was laid out.


And that's the problem...POR assignment and execution of duties are not "managed". The "layout" for each POR is already defined by BSA. The "serving actively" part of the requirement and POR execution is what needs to be monitored by the SPL who assigned the scout to be on his team (boy-led...right?) If he hits the 4 or 6 month clock and no action has been taken to tell the scout that he hasn't performed his POR, the requirement is completed. This is harder for the non-Leadership PORs than the SPL, ASPL or PL ones as the Chaplain's Aide, Librarian or Historian are "gimme" positions to complete the requirement.


No it's not complete. If he did nothing for the 4-6 month period then he didn't fulfill the requirement.


Hopefully if he "did nothing" the SPL and SM would have taken some kind of action to remove him prior to completing the time. If they didn't, they will lose if a scout chooses to appeal.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Advice for Leadership Problem

Postby WVBeaver05 » Mon May 04, 2009 6:26 pm

evmori wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:
evmori wrote:Yeah his clock starts when his POR is assigned. if you give this Scout a clear definition of what the POR entails and what is expected then it makes no difference that his clock has started. When his clock stops, he either did or didn't complete the POR as was laid out.


And that's the problem...POR assignment and execution of duties are not "managed". The "layout" for each POR is already defined by BSA. The "serving actively" part of the requirement and POR execution is what needs to be monitored by the SPL who assigned the scout to be on his team (boy-led...right?) If he hits the 4 or 6 month clock and no action has been taken to tell the scout that he hasn't performed his POR, the requirement is completed. This is harder for the non-Leadership PORs than the SPL, ASPL or PL ones as the Chaplain's Aide, Librarian or Historian are "gimme" positions to complete the requirement.


No it's not complete. If he did nothing for the 4-6 month period then he didn't fulfill the requirement.


Ed,

We can agree or not, but what I have been told by multiple people who have attended the BSA Advancement training is that time in POR counts, period. It is up to the Unit Leadership (Youth and Adult) to counsel and, if needed, remove non-performers. Until removed, it counts.

If you have more up to date info I (for one) would like to have it. But, for now that's the rules that we have been given.

YiS
Wayne

Scoutmaster Troop34
Roundtable Commissioner
Eagle Scout - 1973
Wood Badge Beaver - 2005
WVBeaver05
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:17 am
Location: Buckskin Council - WV


Return to Eagle Scout

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest