Donations eagle project

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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby evmori » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:16 am

smtroop168 wrote:Some of the above is why I'm not convinced having a ESP pot of money for all to draw from is the best idea. You're going to have to have perpetual fundraisers. Younger scouts thinking they are raising money for their future projects that may not be there when it's their turn to draw on the pot.


Those younger Scouts might never get to Eagle!
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:59 pm

evmori wrote:Those younger Scouts might never get to Eagle!


Statistically most won't. I guess I'm a fan of each scout coming up with his own ESLP financial plan and leave the other fundraising efforts of the troop for troop needs and camperships
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:53 am

BUT, the Eagle is NOT about fundraising. It is about demonstation of leadership and planning a project for the community that the young man can be proud of in years to come. :D
I disagree, Field. Part of the PROJECT *is* learning about fundraising. Any project requires funds. It doesn't benefit the Eagle Scout to have a pot already ready to draw from. It's overcoming the reluctance to ask, learning HOW to ask, and actually doing it that benefits the boy. Eagle should not be easy and formulaic; it should require maturity, planning, and execution.
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby aflmom » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:01 am

Regardless of whether or not the eagle project is about fundraising, it's still a necessary part. Personally, I hate fundraising and marketing. I don't mind if people are working for the money they're trying to raise, but I've never been able to let my son just send out letters for things like mission's trips, etc.

Now having said that, sending out a letter describing the project and with photos as one person suggested is a great idea! The organization is benefiting not the student. I also like the idea of a letter of commitment and some of the other suggestions posted here. Hope it's okay with everyone to use the suggestions in a column I'm starting to write for the troop's newsletter.

Had to laugh about the bantering re: social security and the stock market. Ah, life experiences....
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby Cowboy » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:06 am

I too feel that the fundraising is an integral part of the ELSP. If a Scout has earned his Communications MB he should be prepared for it. I also realize that many boys do begin work (or even complete) their ESLP before they have earned all of the ER MB's. Not a good idea, but that is just my opinion. I strongly feel that since the MB's are required, they are to teach the boys the skills that they will need to successfully perform the ESLP. My opinion. Fund raising is hard and even on a smaller project (my sons is running about $800) it takes a lot of work. He has raised about half of the materials, he is asking for materials, not cash. But in this economy the donations are much smaller and he is having to hit up many more businesses than he had originally planned. This also teaches him to change his plans based on conditions. Our DAC also likes to have her own rules and then blame National (see my other post). She also threw this one out there. But, she did say that my business could donate some smaller stuff without violating the intent of the rules. Umm, if it is the rule and you are breaking it, isn't that dishonest? Regardless, Most of our family (extended) does own small businesses and with about 20 of us donating a small amount we COULD cover everything. So far all that I have agreed to donate is stuff that is left over from a business that I sold out 6 years ago. It is either donate or throw it away.
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby wagionvigil » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:37 am

When my son did his he called a local lumber company and spoke to someone there they told him to bring in his materials list and they would see how they could help. We went in and he dropped off the list. The next day one of their trucks showed up at the house with everything and a Slip saying donated for Eagle project. He still had to get some Conctete and some large bolts.
This was 16 years ago.

The project was 6 benches for a new walking trail in our community. Sadly they are all gone. Vandalism. :(
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby FieldSports » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:17 pm

smtroop 168,

Thanks for the information. :D

What is the source? :?: My google search indicates that it came from: http://www.eaglescout.org

While I like what it says and assuming this is the source (prior Eagle Scouts). This is NOT an official BSA site (However, I love the detail they provide :D ) and can not be relied upon. :evil:

I will stick by my orginal statement that I have not seen anything written by BSA that addresses this issue of family donations.

Also, Fundraising is NOT part of the learning. Funding has to be addressed. You are adding to the requirements if you require any fundraising. :twisted: A scout can simply state that his family will pay all expenses. Subject to Bank o Dad prior approval :lol: :lol:

Eagle Scout Requirement 5: While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. The project idea must be approved by your Scoutmaster and troop committee and by the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, No. 18-927, in meeting this requirement.


Cite where in #18-927 where fundraising is an issue other than the project cannot in of itself be a fundraiser?

Read my post. I strongly personally believe that if you want $$, then you better ask a number of places. My son met MY requirement for donations. :D

However, it is NOT required. So, families can pay for everything (unless I have missed a BSA publication).

See my other post to Cowboy about the Eagle process. I am very well versed in the rules due to prior issues in our District. (However, I am always open to the fact that I missed something)

I will be using the http://www.eaglescout.org as a resource. Very cool site.
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:50 pm

I'd like to think that I wrote it but....you are correct..the info comes from Randy's Smith's EP guidance. You can get to the info a variety of ways but eaglescout.org works.

The term I like to use is "Resource Plan" which encompasses donations in kind (like tools) and cash outlays (like hardware/wood). The Workbook does not say the parents (or the scout himself) cannot fund his project. In the 18-927 Project Details paragraph is does say "Plan your work by describing the present condition, the method, materials to be used, project helpers, and a time schedule for carrying out the project, the estimated cost of the project, and how the needed funds will be obtained An ESP could cost nothing depending on what it is.

The idea here is as a Leadership Project we want the scouts to think through all the required pieces and use the skllls they have learned throughout the program (Comms (with others), Pers Mgt (budgeting), Family Life (project mgmt), Cit in Comm (community service)) to help them along the path. By finding the family checkbook and filling it in for Mom or Dad misses the intent of coming up with the needed funds to complete their ESP. They will use their checkbook enough when the college tuition bills roll in. :P
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby Trigirl » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:15 pm

This is a timely subject in our household as my son has been working on his ESLP workbook/plan for a few weeks. He hopes to be ready to go for the four signatures within a few weeks.

The two issues that have come up are funding and having a professional donate labor.

1) Funding - he invests in the stock market. Major holdings are in a trust account (left by deceased grandparents), he follows and reviews portfolio with his dad. Recently he wanted to buy a few stocks for speculation (through a small account I have at a local brokerage) in hopes of making a quick profit for his Eagle project. He used money he had saved from his local bank account. One stock didn't "hit" - but he's happy to keep the investment. The other stock did take a nice leap - he sold enough stock to take the profits and set aside for his project - and put the capital back in savings. (We have a strict family rule about never spend capital. Ever.) He now has about $700. These transactions didn't happen over a few days - he was watching these stocks a few months, then bought them and waited 4-6 weeks for their move. I think one was purchased before his Life BOR date but the sell dates were after Life BOR. If that makes a difference.

Questions:So is that allowed? My husband insists it shows leadership in terms of financial maturity and planning. And it was the boys' money. He could have just used his savings account, but he wanted to 'make' the money.

As a family we are very involved in charitable giving and have participated in large and small fund raising projects in terms of giving and raising money. It is our personal philosophy that if we/he have the money - especially in such tough economic times - why wouldn't we use it to 'stimulate' the local economy instead of asking them to dig into their pockets?

I guess if this were not allowed, he could donate it to the church and ask that it be earmarked for this project - right?

BTW, I told him to ask his SM.

2) Professional Labor - the benefiting organization (church) was very concerned with liability issues in regard to power tools and inexperienced boys. Son spoke with a family friend who is a licensed carpenter and he offered to bring all the tools, operate the major saws, let the boys use the other tools with supervision, and donate his time at 1/4 his normal rate. In other words, if he normally makes $60/hr he will only charge the church $20. Son was really excited to have negotiated this deal and solve the issue of church concerns and who will bring tools (uh, we aren't a real handy type group at home).The carpenter would be cutting and not doing any of the building, son would direct the volunteers on the actual building parts.

Question 2:Is this allowed? Can you pay for professional services?

I do realize that based on the ESLP workbook and BSA advancement regs this is NOT 'illegal' - but it does seem every council has their own little rules - which son will have to find out when he puts it through. I just wanted to know if this sounded like something that would be reasonably accepted or a big red flag....
Thanks!
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby FrankJ » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:02 pm

Since playing (investing actually) in the stock market is not part of the project, I would not go too deep into it. Just say he has been saving to fund his project. (I lot better in some ways than using Bank-O-Mom, but like Field Sport I do not have a problem with that either.)

As for as professional help, General Contractors do it all time time, & they are still in charge as their projects. Just make sure the write up shows the limited role for the pro. Our district has one night a month when eagle candidates can meet with district advancement people & discuss their projects. If your district does something similar, it would be a good idea to meet with them.
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:51 am

Trigirl wrote:This is a timely subject in our household as my son has been working on his ESLP workbook/plan for a few weeks. He hopes to be ready to go for the four signatures within a few weeks.

The two issues that have come up are funding and having a professional donate labor.

1) Funding - he invests in the stock market. Major holdings are in a trust account (left by deceased grandparents), he follows and reviews portfolio with his dad. Recently he wanted to buy a few stocks for speculation (through a small account I have at a local brokerage) in hopes of making a quick profit for his Eagle project. He used money he had saved from his local bank account. One stock didn't "hit" - but he's happy to keep the investment. The other stock did take a nice leap - he sold enough stock to take the profits and set aside for his project - and put the capital back in savings. (We have a strict family rule about never spend capital. Ever.) He now has about $700. These transactions didn't happen over a few days - he was watching these stocks a few months, then bought them and waited 4-6 weeks for their move. I think one was purchased before his Life BOR date but the sell dates were after Life BOR. If that makes a difference.

Questions:So is that allowed? My husband insists it shows leadership in terms of financial maturity and planning. And it was the boys' money. He could have just used his savings account, but he wanted to 'make' the money.

As a family we are very involved in charitable giving and have participated in large and small fund raising projects in terms of giving and raising money. It is our personal philosophy that if we/he have the money - especially in such tough economic times - why wouldn't we use it to 'stimulate' the local economy instead of asking them to dig into their pockets?

I guess if this were not allowed, he could donate it to the church and ask that it be earmarked for this project - right?

BTW, I told him to ask his SM.

2) Professional Labor - the benefiting organization (church) was very concerned with liability issues in regard to power tools and inexperienced boys. Son spoke with a family friend who is a licensed carpenter and he offered to bring all the tools, operate the major saws, let the boys use the other tools with supervision, and donate his time at 1/4 his normal rate. In other words, if he normally makes $60/hr he will only charge the church $20. Son was really excited to have negotiated this deal and solve the issue of church concerns and who will bring tools (uh, we aren't a real handy type group at home).The carpenter would be cutting and not doing any of the building, son would direct the volunteers on the actual building parts.

Question 2:Is this allowed? Can you pay for professional services?

I do realize that based on the ESLP workbook and BSA advancement regs this is NOT 'illegal' - but it does seem every council has their own little rules - which son will have to find out when he puts it through. I just wanted to know if this sounded like something that would be reasonably accepted or a big red flag....
Thanks!



First...please have your son contact the Treasury Secretary...he needs his help. :) As far as your questions go:

1. Funding...As I said above, although it's "legal", ESPs are not designed to be family/scout funded. It's great that he wants to put aside his gains for his project and donating an "earmark" to the church is a good way to go if they agree. Read through the "Financial Plan" posting as well.

2. Professional Labor...not knowing what his project is, why does he need professional labor? Our "rule" is scouts cannot use any tool with a moving blade but my son's construction project's "cutting" was all done by the guys at Home Depot at no charge. We had a volunteer back up saw for adjustments.
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby Trigirl » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:18 pm

Thanks for link to financial plan topic. Good info.

Yes, he knows Lowe's will cut lumber. Not sure about all the small cuts though for the shelving and trim. Needs prof. really for the tools - we don't have them -

Yes, the Treasury does have a few posts to fill doesn't it? And they certainly could use someone with real leadership and planning skills....
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby Trigirl » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:29 pm

aflmom - curious what is the status of your son's funding? Did he get it approved? I hope it is all worked out- let us know!

The economy has hit our town - all of the churches have much less income and some are cutting programming or staff and small businessmen are struggling to stay in business. I don't think it is fair to ask a scout to go out and request donations from people who are struggling when he or his family have the ability to donate and make a positive difference. Especially in the middle of selling these coupon cards!

I agree that scouts should learn about fundraising - but there are two sides to that coin. We teach our children it is better to give than to receive and those that are blessed with resources (be it time, money or other assets) have a responsibility to be good stewards of that resource and to give back to their community. If we only teach our children to ASK for money - how will they ever learn to GIVE?
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:03 pm

Trigirl wrote:I agree that scouts should learn about fundraising - but there are two sides to that coin. We teach our children it is better to give than to receive and those that are blessed with resources (be it time, money or other assets) have a responsibility to be good stewards of that resource and to give back to their community. If we only teach our children to ASK for money - how will they ever learn to GIVE?


Two things...it's a Leadership Project of which the Financial Plan is only part of it and ESP's do not have to break anybody's bank. There are plenty of projects that are very low cost.
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Re: Donations eagle project

Postby Cowboy » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:03 pm

Regarding the funding: Whatever your DAC will allow. I see no problem with a boy who wisely invests money paying for the project, but then I am not the DAC. In these economic times it is very tough to ask someone to give more than they already are. The flip side is that "soliciting" donations does bolster a boys communications skills. If I were pressed to make a ruling I would say: "There is no requirement that an ELSP cost anything, therefore where the funding comes from is irrelevent.
Regarding professional labor: I have seen nothing in any manual or guide that says that you (A Scout) can not use it. Why disqualify the people who can provide the most skilled and quality labor? The biggest caveat is that most professionals are going to be very resistant to taking direction from a minor. Your son will have to establish with the professional that he must ramrod the project, and the professional is to be an "employee". Use of a professional (in my opinon) is once again showing responsibility by choosing the most qualified person to fill a position. That is GOOD leadership. Use of the least skilled for whatever reason is not good people management.
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