Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Information to help with the rank of Eagle Scout.

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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby Mrw » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:59 am

Congratulations to your son!
Mother of two Eagles and troop Advancement Chair
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby Cowboy » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:16 am

Wagion: Not gonna happen. We do have a Crew in town (same Charter Org. even) but it is 5 girls and 1 boy. 3 sibs and 2 cousins. They are not organized or well run. The next closest is over 1 hour away. He will stick with the Troop and continue to work on improving it. That is what it really needs. An Eagle to set the example for the younger ones. We are in a "building year" right now. We had no crossovers this year and only 3 last year. The Troop is down from a high of 23 08-09 to only 12 this year. The adults are also in a lag time. Only about 4 of us who do anything, so pulling away now would just about kill it.
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:40 am

Cowboy wrote:Apparently it was a little touch and go for a little while. The DAC & Asst. DAC are both still hung up on his age (15.5). The other 5 people (yep, you did the math right 7 people, long story) let them know that age was NOT going to be a consideration. That is one of the reasons that our son asked the District Chair to sit on the Board.

Now it is done, and he is moving on. He has served as ASPL and during his BoR told them that he wants to be SPL yet.


Congratualations to your son. 8)

How did your son get input on who was on his EBOR? Not allowed by the rules but then again it doesn't look like your DAC or Asst DAC know the rules anyway. :roll:
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby Cowboy » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:23 am

Once again: Yep, the National rules only exist in Texas. Our DAC likes to do things the "old fashioned way". I had made an issue with the last EBoR about the boy selecting the members and was told (usually) politely that "this is how it is done". He asked our Unit Adv. Chair, a former SM from another Troop, a former SM from our Troop, and two Eagles (one and attorney, and one a very well reknowned businessman) to sit. The two Eagles were not sure if they could make it which is why he ended up asking 5 people. Then the Two Eagles did show up. One of them is the District Chair. Like I said, I pointed out 6 months ago that the Scout is no longer to have input into the make up of the board, but:
1) Must have all fundraising completed prior to DAC approving the project;
2) DAC must receive three letters of recommendation BEFORE they will schedule the EBoR;
3) It is best if the boy is 17 as they have had more time to mature;
4) The scout must ask 3 - 5 people to sit on his EBoR. Once 3 have arrived they will begin the Board.

This is what really twisted my back hair: Being active in OA is the same as being active in the Troop. It is the DAC opinion that if a Scout never steps foot into the Troop meetings, but is very active in OA, that should be sufficient to qualify for advancement or palms.
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby FrankJ » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:53 pm

smtroop168 wrote:It is the DAC opinion that if a Scout never steps foot into the Troop meetings, but is very active in OA, that should be sufficient to qualify for advancement or palms


This is pretty much the same that is in the ACP&P book. To qualify for a palm, you are supposed to be active in your troop. The ACP&P definition of active is pretty much the same registered. And develop leadership. This could be anywhere. If this the same DAC that thinks you should be 17 to earn eagle, then you are not going to have a lot of time to earn palms anyway.

Congratulations to your son.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:44 pm

Cowboy wrote:Once again: Yep, the National rules only exist in Texas. Our DAC likes to do things the "old fashioned way". I had made an issue with the last EBoR about the boy selecting the members and was told (usually) politely that "this is how it is done". He asked our Unit Adv. Chair, a former SM from another Troop, a former SM from our Troop, and two Eagles (one and attorney, and one a very well reknowned businessman) to sit. The two Eagles were not sure if they could make it which is why he ended up asking 5 people. Then the Two Eagles did show up. One of them is the District Chair. Like I said, I pointed out 6 months ago that the Scout is no longer to have input into the make up of the board, but:
1) Must have all fundraising completed prior to DAC approving the project;
2) DAC must receive three letters of recommendation BEFORE they will schedule the EBoR;
3) It is best if the boy is 17 as they have had more time to mature;
4) The scout must ask 3 - 5 people to sit on his EBoR. Once 3 have arrived they will begin the Board.

This is what really twisted my back hair: Being active in OA is the same as being active in the Troop. It is the DAC opinion that if a Scout never steps foot into the Troop meetings, but is very active in OA, that should be sufficient to qualify for advancement or palms.



Now that your son made Eagle is it time for "weapons launch"?
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby Cowboy » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:39 pm

Yes. I know it is going to burn a few bridges, but this has been going on far too long. I have already had one conversation with the Council Executive about time factors involved. He made a call and ten minutes later the ball was rolling, fast. Now I plan to sit down with him and explain my issues and the contradictions with National policy. The most Palms a boy has earned from our unit is 3. I do realize that it is completely up to the boy and his personal motivation, but as Frankj said, if the boys don't make Eagle until 17 they don't have time to get many anyway.
On a sidenote: My son is the 30th Eagle from our Troop. One of the local papers contacted our SM today and wants to interview our son to do a write up on him.
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby lifescoutforlife » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:20 am

Cowboy wrote:Stresssssseeeedddddd out today. Our son sat his EBoR tonight at 6:00 pm. At 7:00 pm we were informed that he is now the newest Eagle Scout in the Blue Hills District. This is one of the proudest days of my life.

CONGRATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you don't take care of the Cub Scouts there will be no Boy Scouts!
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby evmori » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:07 am

smtroop168 wrote:
Cowboy wrote:Once again: Yep, the National rules only exist in Texas. Our DAC likes to do things the "old fashioned way". I had made an issue with the last EBoR about the boy selecting the members and was told (usually) politely that "this is how it is done". He asked our Unit Adv. Chair, a former SM from another Troop, a former SM from our Troop, and two Eagles (one and attorney, and one a very well reknowned businessman) to sit. The two Eagles were not sure if they could make it which is why he ended up asking 5 people. Then the Two Eagles did show up. One of them is the District Chair. Like I said, I pointed out 6 months ago that the Scout is no longer to have input into the make up of the board, but:
1) Must have all fundraising completed prior to DAC approving the project;
2) DAC must receive three letters of recommendation BEFORE they will schedule the EBoR;
3) It is best if the boy is 17 as they have had more time to mature;
4) The scout must ask 3 - 5 people to sit on his EBoR. Once 3 have arrived they will begin the Board.

This is what really twisted my back hair: Being active in OA is the same as being active in the Troop. It is the DAC opinion that if a Scout never steps foot into the Troop meetings, but is very active in OA, that should be sufficient to qualify for advancement or palms.



Now that your son made Eagle is it time for "weapons launch"?


And launch those weapons well! This is totally absurd and must be stopped.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:54 pm

FrankJ wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:It is the DAC opinion that if a Scout never steps foot into the Troop meetings, but is very active in OA, that should be sufficient to qualify for advancement or palms




Actually I didn't.

Also the question I would ask the DAC is what are you trying to prove by not following the BSA Advancement Policies? The Eagle Scout candidate can read these and can see #1-4 are not correct. Also if any of these are appealed, he will lose and make the Council look foolish.

The DAC's take on Palms is one I hadn't heard before. Even under the new Active Definition, a scout could meet the 3 month requirement by being active in the OA and may be the OA unit rep as long as he is in comms witht he unit leader on a quarterly basis. Of course Frank is right that if the DAC doesn't think a scout should make Eagle until 17, palms will be few and far between.
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby ronin718 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:59 am

Having an seriously "underaged" Eagle in my home (now age 14), I've really gotta play in this game. My thoughts on the "pre-reqs" provided:

1) Must have all fundraising completed prior to DAC approving the project;


How is the boy supposed to have all fundraising completed when he is not supposed to even start the project without going through the approval process? Did I miss a change someplace in the last year?

2) DAC must receive three letters of recommendation BEFORE they will schedule the EBoR;


I had fun with our leadership on this one. The requirement states the boy must provide names of individuals who would be willing to provide a recommendation. It does not say that any of the recommendations MUST be provided. My son took this argument to the head shed and steamrolled their delaying tactic.

3) It is best if the boy is 17 as they have had more time to mature;


What a load of malarkey!!! I'd be asking to have this shown to me in the handbook. If not there (which we know it isn't), I'm telling them to be prepared to defend their position as I run it up the chain.
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby FrankJ » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:09 pm

While the requirement is clear that the scout is only supposed to provide the names & contact info & not run down the responses. I would be concerned if there was a non response from all the references in the EBOR.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby ronin718 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:00 pm

FrankJ wrote:While the requirement is clear that the scout is only supposed to provide the names & contact info & not run down the responses. I would be concerned if there was a non response from all the references in the EBOR.


I would too, but folks can be REALLY SLOW in responding. If a Scout is close to the time limit, I'd hate to see this used as why it didn't go forward.
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby WeeWillie » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:15 pm

Never, ever put down a reference that you have not contacted in advance. That goes for life as well as EBOR. Years ago I was put down as a job reference and when I was called by the potential employer, I did not recommend the individual for employment. He didn't get the job.
Mike Wilson
MBC, Cochise District, Catalina Council, Sierra Vista, AZ
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:47 pm

ronin718 wrote:
FrankJ wrote:While the requirement is clear that the scout is only supposed to provide the names & contact info & not run down the responses. I would be concerned if there was a non response from all the references in the EBOR.


I would too, but folks can be REALLY SLOW in responding. If a Scout is close to the time limit, I'd hate to see this used as why it didn't go forward.



An EBOR CANNOT be held up if all the references have not responded (either by letter, call, email or Carrier Pigeon)


WeeWillie wrote:Never, ever put down a reference that you have not contacted in advance. That goes for life as well as EBOR. Years ago I was put down as a job reference and when I was called by the potential employer, I did not recommend the individual for employment. He didn't get the job.


So that's why Wagion never called be back for the Partial Blue Card Assistant job at the Caverns! :wink:
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby FrankJ » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:06 pm

An EBOR CANNOT be held up if all the references have not responded (either by letter, call, email or Carrier Pigeon)


There is a big difference between all & none. If the no reference is required or the references cannot effect the outcome, what is the point? Just have the council office mail the badge and save a lot of time.
Frank J.
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Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby Cowboy » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:00 am

Regs say that the EBOR can not be held up based on lack of references. I too would be very concerned abotu a boy who could not at least get his parents to write a letter. However: Mail gets misdirected, people are busy and sometimes irresponsible, people get sick, go on vacation, etc. Our son had two employers: The Scout Camp Director from last year: That was 9 months ago and 100 "employees ago, and Myself. The teacher that he asked was out sick, then both kids sick, then spring break. One friend was out of town on business for 2 weeks, and another had her husband come home from Iraq deployment. Fortunately for him, they all thought highly of him and took the time to send the letters. His EBOR was not held up because of this. How do I know that this is the "rule"? They actually PUT IT IN WRITING.
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby FrankJ » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:37 am

Actually the WRITING is a little more specific.

"A Scout cannot
have a board of review denied or postponed
because the council office or council
advancement committee does not receive
the reference letter forms he delivered"


I take intent of the WRITING to mean that the advancement committee is responsible to contact the references and not the scout & the committee should do its job in a prompt manner. If the advancement committee does not do its job it should not be held against the scout. I agree with that completely. If all the reference are contacted & refuse to give an recommendation is a completely different set of circumstances.

On the other hand. The references should be to answer how the scout is living the scout oath & law. If that question can be answered by other means then the references are unimportant.

Is not scheduling a EBOR the same as postponing it? Our district will not schedule the EBOR until all the paperwork is done. (Nothing to do with me. I am not involved in those committees)
Frank J.
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Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:09 am

FrankJ wrote:Actually the WRITING is a little more specific.

"A Scout cannot
have a board of review denied or postponed
because the council office or council
advancement committee does not receive
the reference letter forms he delivered"


I take intent of the WRITING to mean that the advancement committee is responsible to contact the references and not the scout & the committee should do its job in a prompt manner. If the advancement committee does not do its job it should not be held against the scout. I agree with that completely. If all the reference are contacted & refuse to give an recommendation is a completely different set of circumstances.

On the other hand. The references should be to answer how the scout is living the scout oath & law. If that question can be answered by other means then the references are unimportant.

Is not scheduling a EBOR the same as postponing it? Our district will not schedule the EBOR until all the paperwork is done. (Nothing to do with me. I am not involved in those committees)



Not Scheduling could be construed as denying.

Some councils do not use letters, they use the phone or email (that's one of the reasons the email was added to the Eagle Application)

Some councils do not hold EBORs except for appeals. Here the unit gathers the paperwork (including the letters...actually our are fill in the blanks and are terrible). The EBORs are held at the unit level with a Dist Adv comm member on it.
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Re: Need help with Life - Eagle Process

Postby mhjacobson » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:42 pm

This is one of those cases where a copy of the ESSP workbook and the Guide to Advancement could be put in front of the person who stated that the money had to be raised prior to the project being approved. In fact it is the opposite. The Fundraising application cannot be completed until the project proposal is approved, and then (and only then) can the fundraising application be submitted to Council. If a fundraising application is not necessary, the backup plan needs to be put into the project proposal.

Yes someone is overreaching here!
50 year+ scouter -- have held almost all adult leader positions in Cubs, Scouts, & Venturing, currently serving as Council Scouting for Youth with Disabilities Chair.
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