Half a Project

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Re: Half a Project

Postby evmori » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:04 pm

mhjacobson wrote:The poster never said that the temp was too hot -- he stated that there were unforseen circumstances. Rather than criticize the project or the boy, I decided that it was appropriate to give him the information of the procedures to be follow in the (RARE) instance that the circunstances were a major impediment to the completion of the project, and truely were of the nature that they could not have been anticipated. This type of instance has occurred in the past with some projects and an amendment was viewed as appropriate (by the Council Advancement Committee) and was approved by the organization that benefitted from the project.

One of the things that are starting to upset me about some posters on this forum is that they are too quick to pounce and criticize. We must remember that we are in Scouting (or should be in Scouting) for the Scouts. As long as the program is run by the rules, and the Scouts are learning and doing, it is a wonderful program. When we start to have leaders who believe that they are the word and the law and that there are no areas where understanding and compassion should also be taken into consideration (without bending the rules), then we start to fail our purpose -- the boys!


I repeat

I couldn't complete the project because it was too hot? Not a valid reason! Wait until the temps cool down then finish! Otherwise, project not complete~ And leadership of said project in question~
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Re: Half a Project

Postby scoutaholic » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:27 pm

smtroop168 wrote:This is a quote from his SM.
"His original scope had to be reduced once he realized the work involved based on the number of volunteers, etc. He did fine and I support his decision."
...


I wouldn't think that the boys failure to get more volunteers is not a valid reason to only do half the project. He should have known before starting the project how much work was involved, and planned accordingly. If it was too hot or the volunteer group too small to finish that day, then the project leader (the Eagle Candidate) needs to arrange to finish.


I had a boy a few years ago plan a project on a Saturday. The CO handed him the project idea with much of the preliminary work done. He just had to get the volunteers there and arrange for any logistics for the group (like food and drink for a long days work). He showed up with his Dad, brother, 1 friend, and no food/drink plans. Other circumstances prevented them doing the project, which is probably his excuse for not getting Eagle. The real problem was that he didn't accomplish his preliminary leadership in getting volunteers and making the other arrangements. Had circumstances allowed them to do the project, he wasn't prepared with the volunteers to do it and the project would have failed anyway. The circumstances prevented them doing the project, and also prevented him learning from the failure to do his part of the preliminary leadership. (It also got me off the hook of being the bad guy who had to tell him he hadn't showed leadership in getting the project done.) Three years later, this boy turned 18 without ever making another attempt at an Eagle project.
Last edited by scoutaholic on Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby kwildman » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:02 pm

I would be curious as to why the school finished the other side? Was there a failure in communications that the school believed that the scout was not going to finish the project? As project manager, the scout should have been in communication with school and said I got 1/2 of this done and my plans to finish are.... I think projects are often underestimated and it is a good learning experience for all involved to figure out how to overcome the various issues that arise. If they complete half and pull out because there is not enough help or it is too hot then the scout should have figured out how to recruit more help or better organize his work team. Could the schedule have been adjusted so that they painted in the early morning and evening to avoid the heat of the day? These are the types of things that teach management and build future leaders.

Instead of amending the project to say that 1/2 is good enough, i would consider adding something else equivalent to the other side. Just a thought.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby mhjacobson » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:08 pm

IF the project was not completed due to a failure on the part of the scout to have the proper number of volunteers, and IF the project was completed by the school (I did not see that in a post) through poor communication received from the scout, it seems to me that it is a non-completed project and the scout will need to contact his Eagle Scout Mentor and start work on a new project if he ever wants to have that medal pinned on his chest.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:44 pm

I do not know for sure and I'm trying to find out but my guess is that the other side has not been done by the school yet. I say this only because I haven't heard "But the other side was done so he can't finish" plea.

The SM supports what he has done because he's put over 180 hours into the project already.

Stay tuned.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby kwildman » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:14 pm

I misread your post... your concerns were the school went ahead and finished. I would have the scout get in touch with the school immediately and find out and complete the project if possible. Regardless of how much time is invested, I don't think letting a scout back out of an agreement is teaching him anything.

keep us posted.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby mhjacobson » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:48 pm

I just spent 3 hours in a meeting with mu Council's advancement committee (I am on the committee as the Scouting for Youth with Disabilities Chair) and we spent most of that time going over our Eagle Scout Candidate Mentor's Handbook (and the National BSA Guidelines). It is very clear in both that it is not the time that it takes to complete the project (even if the scout underestimates the time), it is the completion of the project as proposed that counts UNLESS there were unforseen circumstances that caused the failure of the project. Somewhere in this equation, there is an Eagle Scout Mentor, and an Eagle Scout Coach, and in all of the posts back-and-forth there was no mention of what either one has to say about the non-completion of the project.

Last night we discussed a project that has gong from concept to full plan to start of implementation to NOTHING. The committee, some of whom had intimate details of what is going on, told me that it will be one of those cases where a project was started, not completed, and another 18 year old will age out with 21+ MB and no project.

Somehow you need to get ahold of the scout and get the whole story, and then you should talk to the Eagle Coach (that's the one from your unit) and/or the Eagle Scout Mentor (that's the one from the district) and find out what they know. If it is nothing -- leave it alone. It is not your responsibility to bail out the scout. Again, if it was truely due to an unforceen circumstance, ask the mentor what can be done.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby evmori » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:41 am

smtroop168 wrote:I do not know for sure and I'm trying to find out but my guess is that the other side has not been done by the school yet. I say this only because I haven't heard "But the other side was done so he can't finish" plea.

The SM supports what he has done because he's put over 180 hours into the project already.

Stay tuned.


It makes no difference how many hours the Scout has in the project since there is no requirement regarding the number of hours. The project isn't complete!
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:12 am

I spoke with the Troop's Eagle Scout Mentor this AM and he is taking this for action. Best he can tell there were no extenuating circumstances at the time he stopped that would have prevented him from finishing his original project. He has not contacted the school.

Unfortunately the SM has kicked "resolution" of this to the Scout's Dad and told him to work it with me. The Scout's Dad jumped in and continues to dig himself and his son a bigger hole. He said the reason they only had 2 days to complete the project was they had reservations at Disney. He believes I am being unreasonable to expect him to finish and the EBOR will see it his way. I reminded him that the project completion decision at the EBOR must be unanimous and someone from the District sits on the board.

Continue to stay tuned.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby VenturingL » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:18 pm

Scout's DAD is to resolve? The SCOUT is the one who needs to take responsibility for HIS porject and work with benifitting organization and Eagle Coach.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby evmori » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:33 pm

VenturingL wrote:Scout's DAD is to resolve? The SCOUT is the one who needs to take responsibility for HIS porject and work with benifitting organization and Eagle Coach.


I was thinking the same thing! And what a weenie for a SM! Great role model~
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:49 pm

The Scout believes he has a completed project so why would he contact anyone at this point?
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Re: Half a Project

Postby evmori » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:18 pm

smtroop168 wrote:The Scout believes he has a completed project so why would he contact anyone at this point?



:idea: :idea: Ummmmm............ it's his project :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Then again :?: :?: :?: Maybe it isn't :!:
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Re: Half a Project

Postby kwildman » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:30 pm

The SM is a weenie ..he should be motivating him to get done. The scout still needs to complete a Scoutmaster Conference prior to his EBOR. The SM should be setting clear direction at this point. I would be concerned that if my unit were not completing projects as agreed upon that the school would not be willing to sponsor future eagle projects.

Disney vacation? Seriously? Are you just trolling trying to get us all riled up? :roll: There is nothing to say that you cant take a vacation in the middle of your project unless you agreed to complete the task by a given date.

Why would the scout believe he is done? Because Dad says so? Dad cant sign off his project. Has anyone in your unit actually told the scout that he is not done?

Just curious- how old is the scout.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:43 pm

I believe the school doesn't know any better because they don't get many ESP and that they should require full completion as they agreed to. I'm hoping they were not sold a bill of goods. The Eagle Mentor is calling the Athletic Director.

Not kidding about Disney. Could have finished when he got back.

Yep and SM thinks he's done enough. After all he spend 180 hours on it!

Hope so. Hearing about this second hand and never being approach by the scout on what he could do, I was trying to head off an EBOR disaster. This is not my unit, I'm the mean old District Advancement Rep who signed the original project (after multiple reviews).

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Re: Half a Project

Postby mhjacobson » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:24 pm

DAD and the scout is out of luck. Until the project has the required signatures on it, including the organizaiton that is the recipient of the swervice project, that attest to the fact that the project is complete, there will be no BOR. If there is a BOR it can only rule, with the signatures missing, that the project is not complete and the scout is ineligible for Eagle at this time.

Yep, the prior poster is correct, the SM should have NOT referred the matter to the Scout's father, but to the Eagle Mento and Eagle Coach -- that'swhat they are there for. In addition, one fo the reasons for the project is for the scout to stand on HIS OWN TWO LEGS when comleting a major project.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby kwildman » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:44 pm

ok...my turn to be a weenie.

How could a single scout possibly rack up 180 hours on a painting project? That is over a four weeks of working full time M-5, 8hrs a day. I think he could have painted the entire thing by himself in that amount of time. The school provided the paint and materials? He provided organization of labor force? Something is out of whack.

If you are counting all of the combined hours of volunteers 180 hours is not that much for an eagle project. 18 people for one ten hour day could get you there.

This should be about providing a completed service and not about hitting some set number of hours.

Does the mentor believe the project to be complete? Even if the school signs off on the project...I would hope that this would be a problem for at least one person on the EBOR.
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:23 pm

Weenie away....

The 180 hours is for all participants over 2 days. School provided the materials. You know there is no minimum number of hours required for an ESP. I think they are using that number to impress me (I'm not). My last Eagle had 400 or so.

My discussion with the mentor today was good. Since his son just went through his own EP, so he doesn't have much, if any, sympathy. His son's team planted 500 trees in the rain. He's new and I think he's been a little sandbagged.

If we follow our normal District procedures, I will be on the EBOR. My guess is that the troop will ask for someone else since I would be prejudice to his case but there are "meaner" guys on the committee than me. I know we don't approve the project but we do approve the manner in which it was carried out.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby evmori » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:31 pm

smtroop168 wrote:Weenie away....

The 180 hours is for all participants over 2 days. School provided the materials. You know there is no minimum number of hours required for an ESP. I think they are using that number to impress me (I'm not). My last Eagle had 400 or so.

My discussion with the mentor today was good. Since his son just went through his own EP, so he doesn't have much, if any, sympathy. His son's team planted 500 trees in the rain. He's new and I think he's been a little sandbagged.

If we follow our normal District procedures, I will be on the EBOR. My guess is that the troop will ask for someone else since I would be prejudice to his case but there are "meaner" guys on the committee than me. I know we don't approve the project but we do approve the manner in which it was carried out.


You will be on the EBOR? Shouldn't be. The EBOR should be people the Scout doesn't know so it is fair. I have been asked to sit on EBOR's for Scouts I knew & refused because I knew them. It isn't fair to the Scout or the person on the EBOR.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:50 pm

The EBORs in our Council are done at the unit level with a District rep. In our District we have 35 troops split among 7 on the DAC. We are essentially the troop's Eagle Commissioner for lack of a better title. We review any Eagle Projects for our assigned troops and then return to sit on the EBOR. We don't do our own troops as one of the 7 is my troop's Eagle Commissioner. I reviewed (3 times I think) and finally approved this scout's original project. That's why I had some idea what he was signed up to do and how I found out what he actually did or didn't do.

Sitting on a EBOR of someone you know is not a problem for me and is not prohibited by BSA but I understand why some could feel so.
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