Half a Project

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Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:05 am

I approved a scout for his ES project to resurface all the steps at the local HS stadium with non-skid paint. There are two sides to the stadium each with 6 aisles. Through the grapevine I understand the scout and his team only completed one side because it was hot, too hard etc. Trying to get the full story.

I know there are changes to projects that occur and the scout has to document them but my opinion on this one is that he did not complete the project as approved and he should have come back to me as the District rep for a change of this magnitude. I've seen a couple of references that say this but of they are local council guidelines.

I'll feed you more info as it comes in as the scout is current on vacation.

What do you guys think?
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Re: Half a Project

Postby Mrw » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:19 am

Just because he did not finish it in the originally planned time, doesn't mean he can't go back and get it done another day. My second son's project took twice as long as planned, but was still finished as agreed on with the organization he was working for.

I would expect the boy to organize a second work day to get it done.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:23 am

I agree that he could go back for another day but my information at this point suggests that he is not going back and he is writing up his post project report.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby Mrw » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:33 am

I would have a hard time signing off on this as the representative of the group the project was half done for. I would have a hard time signing off on this as a troop representative.

I would have a very hard time sitting on this boy's Eagle BOR and approving the rank without a really good explanation of why it was not completed as agreed.

We can only hope that someone leans on him before he actually submits his application and gets him to understand that it is important to finish what you start - even if it is hard.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:07 pm

That's exactly why I'm trying to get out in front of the issue prior to his EBOR.

One of my concerns is that the school went ahead and finished the other side on their own.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby wagionvigil » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:19 pm

Man, Problems just follow you around :lol:
BTW what is the latest on the MB Sash saga?
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:54 pm

The scouts sashes are correct. After I showed her National's response, she fixed them. The Insignia guide will be changed with all the new uniform stuff coming out.

What else can I solve for you??? :D

Maybe the Cave in Apr/May 09. We have our 2009 planning meeting in a couple of weeks.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby FrankJ » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:13 pm

I am assuming the Scout got the institution & Unit leader to sign of that the project was completed? The Eagle Project workbook does not require district sign off that the project was completed. I guess that is because the BOR approves the manner in which the Eagle project was done including all changes. I would make sure the district person on the BOR is aware of the issue.

Maybe it would be worth while to discuss this with the district advancement chair and or the district committee chair to let the scout know he needs to be well prepared with the reasons for the changes in the project to discuss in his BOR.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:19 pm

Apologize for not having all the facts yet, but I do know the SM has not signed off on it. I was told he was working on his write up so I'm going to guess the school hasn't signed off either.

FYI I am on the District Advancement Committee. I'm waiting on the rest of the story before I call the DAC Chair.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby Bill Pitcher » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:21 pm

I have had 2 scouts not finish their projects as proposed. One: didn't clean up the debris and finish the trim on a large storage shed for his local fire departnent. The FD wouldn't sign off and neither would his SM. HE FAILED his BOR and didn't appeal.

Second: The candidate was to build 8 fitness stations around a small lake at a local park. He only did 4 and said "I did enough." His father, the SM signed off and told us that he was of the impression that the EBoR was just a formality (boy, was he wrong)! THE SCOUT FAILED his EBoR, also, and turned 18.

An Eagle project is "a contract" and needs to be finished as proposed, just like in another thread, the sponsoring organization shouldn't add to a project. Both parties agree to what is to be done.

If the scout isn't 18, the Eagle mentor (is that you?) needs to advise him to finish. I always look at the finished project BEFORE I set up a EBoR. Project not done . . . . no EBoR. I'm not embarasing myself for not watching the progress of the project! Good Luck. BP
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:39 pm

Thanks Bill. No I'm not the Eagle Mentor, I'm on the DAC and approved his project and will sit on his EBOR. I just heard through the grapevine, and it was confirmed by the Eagle Mentor and SM, that he only did the Home side of the stadium. The DA Chair concurs that he needs to finish the project. His Troop has it for action and I'm waiting to hear from them. I honestly don't know what to do if the school went ahead and did the Visitors side since there will be no project to "finish".
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Re: Half a Project

Postby mhjacobson » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:39 pm

I know of ONE case where the scout truely bit off more than he could chew (and the mentor did not advise him to the contrary) and accomplished 1/2 of the number of birdhouses that he said that he would construct. Even the forest preserve district that was benefiting from the project stated that he was too ambitious and approved the project AFTER the scout had to write an addendum to the project proposal that explained why the number of birdhouses was reduced from 200 to 100. (Wow 100 birdhouses!) The signed amended project was presented to the BOR who accepted it and the eagle was awarded.

As I have often said: it is more about the manner in which the scout conducts himself than the detail.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:34 pm

mh....from what I know now, this case is similar to Bill's 2nd example. "No Mas". I'll certainly let everyone know the rest of the story as soon as I find out. The project plan had a workforce made up of over 25 folks. 2 workers per staircase x 12 staircases. He was getting his workforce from the HS band, HS tennis team and scout troop. Most of the materials were supplied by the school athletic department.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby mhjacobson » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:55 pm

Important to find out. If the failure to finish was due to some unforseen circumstance, perhaps he can write up an amendment and get it approved by the SM and the School. Sounds like it was one major project. I can guess that the scout over estimated the number of stairs that a person can resurface before fatiguing out (which would not be a valid reason for an amendment(, However, if there was an unexpected high temperature for the day, etc., then a potential amendment would be in order. What the BOR is most interested in is the quality of the plan, the executiion of the plan, and the approvals. IF an amendment was in place and the plan, as amended, os approved, there is little that the BOR can do regarding the project. Otherwise, he has 6 aisles to complete for eagle.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:07 pm

The project did not have to be done all in one day. School was out and he had all summer.

The quality of the plan was good or I wouldn't have approved it. It was a scrape the old and paint the new effort.
The execution of the plan is not good at this point
No amendment is in place....that's the crux of the issue. He unilaterally decided to stop.
The approval of the project has not occurred by the SM

Again...I'll fill everyone in when I get more details.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby evmori » Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:13 am

mhjacobson wrote:Important to find out. If the failure to finish was due to some unforseen circumstance, perhaps he can write up an amendment and get it approved by the SM and the School. Sounds like it was one major project. I can guess that the scout over estimated the number of stairs that a person can resurface before fatiguing out (which would not be a valid reason for an amendment(, However, if there was an unexpected high temperature for the day, etc., then a potential amendment would be in order. What the BOR is most interested in is the quality of the plan, the executiion of the plan, and the approvals. IF an amendment was in place and the plan, as amended, os approved, there is little that the BOR can do regarding the project. Otherwise, he has 6 aisles to complete for eagle.



I couldn't complete the project because it was too hot? Not a valid reason! Wait until the temps cool down then finish! Otherwise, project not complete~ And leadership of said project in question~
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Re: Half a Project

Postby mhjacobson » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:23 am

The poster never said that the temp was too hot -- he stated that there were unforseen circumstances. Rather than criticize the project or the boy, I decided that it was appropriate to give him the information of the procedures to be follow in the (RARE) instance that the circunstances were a major impediment to the completion of the project, and truely were of the nature that they could not have been anticipated. This type of instance has occurred in the past with some projects and an amendment was viewed as appropriate (by the Council Advancement Committee) and was approved by the organization that benefitted from the project.

One of the things that are starting to upset me about some posters on this forum is that they are too quick to pounce and criticize. We must remember that we are in Scouting (or should be in Scouting) for the Scouts. As long as the program is run by the rules, and the Scouts are learning and doing, it is a wonderful program. When we start to have leaders who believe that they are the word and the law and that there are no areas where understanding and compassion should also be taken into consideration (without bending the rules), then we start to fail our purpose -- the boys!
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:49 am

MH...Original poster here....actually my grapevine info did tell me one of the reasons they stopped was because it was too hot. I agree this is a rare instance and I appreciate the insight from those who have had to deal with this before. I was putting this out before I had the entire story (which I'm still waiting on) to see if any of the 50+ YOS folks could give me a rule or reference. At this point all I have found is this from a council site. The scout's unilateral decision to stop is the crux of the issue.

"Changes After Approval
As you work on carrying out the project, you will probably have to make some changes from your plan. That is normal, and expected. The changes should be documented in the notes of journal you are keeping along the way. If the changes are significant enough that they change the scope of the project or the magnitude of the leadership you must provide, you should check with the four people who approved the project originally. You do not want to get to the Board of Review (who must approve the project as carried out) that you have done a nice community service project but it no longer qualifies as an Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project."

We have numerous examples where we are left hanging by the poster or don't get the Paul Harvey version of the story hence we rely on what we have been given and make our comments. We all want to help the posters who do not have the same level of experience as some do. Guys like you that have indepth knowledge on Scouts with Disablilies are invaluable to the forum as are milominderbender who has put an enormous amount of effort into this forum and authored all the MB worksheets. I don't view this as pouncing and/or criticizing. Sorry if I have contributed to this with this subject. I just wanted to try and get out in front of a potential disaster at the scout's EBOR.
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Re: Half a Project

Postby mhjacobson » Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:37 pm

Thanks for the insight. As you so rightly stated, the issue needs to be solved before the scout even thinks of scheduling a BOR. IF there were some unforseen circumstances, and IF the scouts writes a plan amendment, and IF the organization (and the unit) leadership decides that the amended plan is sufficient, then fine. BUT IF it is decided that the scout 'pooped out' as it was more work than he anticipated, then (as far as I am concerned) it is a no go.

While I have rarely found a BOR that overruled a properly constructed, approved plan amendment, even one that was written near the end of the project, I know that it will come up at the BOR and IF THE SCOUT IS UNABLE TO DEFEND THE MOTIVATION BEHIND THE AMENDMENT, the BOR may require the he finish the original project. (I have not personally witnessed this to date -- all of the Eagle BOR that I have attended as a Council Advancement Committee Representative have been able to explain the reasons for the plan amendment that were more than satisfactory).

I am anxiously awaiting your post as to what actually happened to the project. The truth will come out in the immediate future.

Yours,
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Re: Half a Project

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:13 pm

This is a quote from his SM.

"His original scope had to be reduced once he realized the work involved based on the number of volunteers, etc. He did fine and I support his decision."

I told him that I needed a lot more info than this to support his decision not to finish his approved project and in my opinion, he does not have a completed ES project.

Stand by for further updates.
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