Eagle BORs - Scout is not successful

Information to help with the rank of Eagle Scout.

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Postby evmori » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:42 pm

jr56 wrote:I always equate a BOR to going for a job interview. Would you go to a job interview in blue jeans, a dirty t-shirt and no socks or shoes?
So why would you go to a scout BOR without your uniform. I agree with ED, you can't deny a boy advancement because he is not wearing his uniform. I have always handled that by asking the boy where his uniform was, if it wasn't a good reason, I would simply defer the BOR until the scout was properly prepared (uniform).
It is common knowledge in any troop I've ever been involved with, that you wear your uniform to a BOR.
Just my opinion for what it's worth, before everybody gets their flamethrowers out.


By deferring the Scout's BOR until he has his uniform you are in essence saying "Wear your uniform or no BOR". That's adding to the requirements.

What if a Scout showed up for his BOR in a suit?
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Postby optimist » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:14 pm

The problem with the last 20 messages is everybody is basically agreeing, they're just agreeing to meet in the middle from opposite sides and unwilling to be the last not to mention their side of the argument :wink:
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Postby Hubert » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:35 pm

Well, in your first ranks, Scouter, Tenderfoot, and maybe second class, a uniform isnt a must. When you get closer to Eagle, I believe it is a respectful thing to wear the uniform to a BoR. As you get closer to Eagle, your representing scouts to the public, and representing yourself, troop, council, the list just keeps going. I dont see the uniform as a peice of cloth with a few patches, I honor the uniform, I love my uniform. It is something that I take pride in wearing, and wear it a lot, not just for BoR, but to other events as well. I believe that a BoR is an important place to wear it too because thats where you advance farther down your path, and closer to Eagle. When you go to the committee, you are asking to be promoted, you want to impress them, how can you impress, if you do not wear your uniform if you have it?.
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Postby RWSmith » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:35 am

I split the Scouts is not "cool at school".... posts off into a new thread.
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Postby Scouting179 » Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:41 pm

The official adv guide says a Scout should show up at a BOR in "as complete a uniform as possible".
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Postby PaulSWolf » Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:15 pm

Scouting179 wrote:The official adv guide says a Scout should show up at a BOR in "as complete a uniform as possible".

Right. And if he doesn't own one (or doesn't own one that fits), and can't afford to buy one, then if he shows up in a neat clean manner, with no uniform at all, he's in "as complete a uniform as is possible" for him.
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Postby WeeWillie » Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:53 pm

A Scout is thrifty. There is the troop uniform locker or e-bay. If a Scout can not afford a uniform then he can earn one. I'm sure the charter organization has chores than need to be done in exchange for at least a used uniform shirt. Most units provide the patches. A needle and thread is cheap. (I sewed all my patches).
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Postby ilgoldstein » Sat May 26, 2007 10:51 am

Fascinating post people. I have not yet sat on an EBOR, but have sat on unit BORs for years. My understanding is that we cannot retest or add to requirements. Now prior to the actual EBOR, the scout has had a Scoutmaster Conference, has had his application approved by the Committee Chair and troop Advancement Chair. Presumably he has had his references checked and requirements verified. I also understand there is no requirement that the scout wear a uniform at his BOR (although I suppose it is a legitimate area of inquiry to hear the scout's explanation.)

I really think that BORs, including EBORs, need to be mindful of the limitations against retesting or adding requirements. It should be sufficient to discuss the Eagle Service Project, the scouting experience, and the responsibilities of the rank.

As far as voting against a scout who says he wants Eagle Rank for resume value, you have no right to vote against him for that if he has met the requirements. Especially if you KNOW you will be overturned on appeal. That is just wrong. If you feel that strongly about it, don't sit on EBORs and work withing the organization to address the issue. If you worked at the DMV administering driving tests, you could not refuse a license because you didn't agree with the applicant's reason for wanting the license. (And remember, driving is a privilege, not a right.)

As an aside, one scout in my troop went to his EBOR, and one of the panel was in pajamas! Our new coordinator is tightening up on EBORs, not to make them harder on the scouts, but to make sure the SCOUTS are receiving the proper respect!
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Postby WVBeaver05 » Sat May 26, 2007 11:08 am

WELL SAID ilgoldstein!!

You touched on many of the KEY items. NO retesting, Uniform NOT required (but a valid subject for discussion), and respect for the Scout. But the key one for me is the members/Scouters FOLLOWING THE RULES! I can find in my (very) old Scout Handbook, that if you don't like the rules/laws, you don't break them, you work to change them. We should all remember that.

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Postby WVBeaver05 » Sat May 26, 2007 11:12 am

ilgoldstein wrote:I also understand there is no requirement that the scout wear a uniform at his BOR (although I suppose it is a legitimate area of inquiry to hear the scout's explanation.)

We just had this happen last week. The answer. The Scouts don't keep their uniforms. The Troop locks them at the meeting place. This was confirmed by a Scouter who was familiar with the Unit.

Now, myself, I had never heard of such a thing! I don't think I agree with it. And, even if I did, as Unit Leader, I would have made arrangements in some way for the Scout headed for his EBOR to get/have his uniform.

Oh, well. Just my thoughts.

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Postby MDEagle » Sat May 26, 2007 12:20 pm

WVBeaver05 wrote:
ilgoldstein wrote:The Scouts don't keep their uniforms. The Troop locks them at the meeting place. This was confirmed by a Scouter who was familiar with the Unit.


Wow. Just when you think you've probably heard it all. :shock:

What possible rationale could the Troop have for this? Don't the boys OWN their own uniforms?
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Postby wagionvigil » Sat May 26, 2007 12:25 pm

When I took WB many years ago there was a women there from NJ and this is what they did. The troop actually owns the unifoms and they give them to the scouts to use untilthey leave. The mothers and other volunteers sew on the awards etc at every COH. WIthout getting into the specifics they do it so the boys have a uniform they do it to make sure the uniforms are returned. This is a very low income area
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Postby joat » Sun May 27, 2007 11:54 am

ilgoldstein wrote: I also understand there is no requirement that the scout wear a uniform at his BOR (although I suppose it is a legitimate area of inquiry to hear the scout's explanation.)


A Scout should wear as complete a uniform as he is able. Although a boy is not required to own a uniform to be a Scout, if he owns one then the board should expect that he wear it. If a boy chooses to skip wearing his uniform, or parts of it, that should say a lot to the board about how seriously the boy considers his board of review. It's also an indication of how well the Scoutmaster is implementing the uniform method.
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Postby evmori » Sun May 27, 2007 12:10 pm

joat wrote:If a boy chooses to skip wearing his uniform, or parts of it, that should say a lot to the board about how seriously the boy considers his board of review. It's also an indication of how well the Scoutmaster is implementing the uniform method.


Hogwash!

What if he shows up in a suit & tie? What does that tell you?
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Postby MDEagle » Sun May 27, 2007 12:54 pm

wagionvigil wrote:When I took WB many years ago there was a women there from NJ and this is what they did. The troop actually owns the unifoms and they give them to the scouts to use untilthey leave. The mothers and other volunteers sew on the awards etc at every COH. WIthout getting into the specifics they do it so the boys have a uniform they do it to make sure the uniforms are returned. This is a very low income area


Thanks, W.

I hadn't considered that possibility, and I suppose it does make more sense considering the location of the Troop.

I think anything we can do to encourage Scouting among disadvantaged youth (and if they can't afford their own uniform, I consider that "disadvantaged") is a very good thing.
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Postby WeeWillie » Sun May 27, 2007 7:20 pm

Wayne

Previous editions of the BSA Handbook do not support your position that the uniform is not required. The Boy Scout Handbook, 7th Edition, 3rd Printing (Jan 67), Wearing the Uniform, pg 59 states.

"Wear the Uniform: At all activities of your patrol and troop - meetings, hikes, camps, rallies. When you appear for advancement before a board of review or court of honor."

The current edition is slightly less emphatic, but does support requiring a uniform for Scout activities including BORs. Scout Uniform pg 13 "Wear full uniform for all ceremonial and indoor activities, such as troop meetings, courts of honor, and most indoor activities." If a Scout is wearing his uniforms to meeting as stated, then he is also wearing his uniform to BORs. By the time a Scout is eligible for Eagle Scout, wearing the Scout uniform should be a matter of course. It is the SM's responsibility to see that it happens.

Requiring a uniform for a EBOR isn't adding a requirement, because the requirement for wearing a uniform already exists. If a having a uniform poses a financial burden, then there are other methods of obtaining one.
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Postby Lynda J » Tue May 29, 2007 9:16 am

There is no requirement for being a member of Boy Scouts that states you have to have a uniform.
If you have one you should wear it proudly and properly.

I have an issue with the group that furnishes the uniforms. I do not sew any patches or badges on Kevins uniform. That is his responsibility. The only thing I do regarding his uniform is hem new pants. I don't wash it unless it is put in with other clothes. It is his responsibility to maintain his uniform.
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Postby evmori » Tue May 29, 2007 10:15 am

WeeWillie wrote:Wayne

"Wear the Uniform: At all activities of your patrol and troop - meetings, hikes, camps, rallies. When you appear for advancement before a board of review or court of honor."

Requiring a uniform for a EBOR isn't adding a requirement, because the requirement for wearing a uniform already exists. If a having a uniform poses a financial burden, then there are other methods of obtaining one.


Yes it is. You can't require something for a BOR that isn't required to be a member.
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Postby Mrw » Tue May 29, 2007 10:16 am

If the group supplies a uniform for the boy to wear at troop meetings, but keeps them at the meeting place so that they are always there for the boys, then the troop would need to sew the patches for the boys.

I can understand for some innner-city troops to find this to be a good way to operate. For boys that get bounced from one place to another, the unifrom would likely be one of the first things to get lost or left as it would not be a daily need. And i also know that affording uniforms can keep some boys from even trying scouting in these areas.

My kids also did learn how to sew patches. (And also learned that staples work pretty well in a pinch too.)
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Postby ilgoldstein » Tue May 29, 2007 7:21 pm

I think a logical interpretation of the Handbook explanation as to when a uniform is worn is to explain when it is PROPER to wear a uniform. Not when it is required.

We encourage uniforms to be worn at all meetings, but during the summer we institute "Class B" which consists of a scout (preferably Troop) T-shirt.

We also review uniforms for (Troop held) BORs, but with all the talk about it recently, I am going to bring it up at the next committee meeting whether we can require uniforms for BOR. I know we have postponed them if a scout did not wear one.
Last edited by ilgoldstein on Tue May 29, 2007 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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