Eagle BORs - Scout is not successful

Information to help with the rank of Eagle Scout.

Moderators: Site Admin, Moderators

Postby evmori » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:38 pm

ronin718 wrote:While some might argue requiring the boy to show for his BOR might be considered adding a requirement, I think it falls under the "demonstrate Scout spirit". This is a Scouting activity, in a Scouting environment, so expecting the participants to be in uniform is not an unreasonable concept.


Scout Spirit is defined by living the Scout Oath & Law in your everyday life. It has nothing to do with what you wear or don't wear.

Yes I have had a Scout show up for his EBOR in a nice shirt & pants - no uniform. He passed with flying colors.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:18 pm

Since I started this thread, let me give you the Paul Harvey:

The reasons given the scout in the letter he received from the EBOR chair were: Poor Appearance - uniform not ready; Demeanor- unable to answer the board's questions with anything other than a mumble or weak yes/no; and Leadership Project - execution of his project appeared to be done by parents and he could not articulate how he displayed leadership.

He took these items aboard and did a good job at the appeal board and passed. He admitted he didn't feel he did a very good job at the first BOR and would be a spokeman in his troop on how to prepare better.

I was more ticked off at the Troop leadership for allowing this to occur than I was at the scout.

Yours in scouting
Matt
Eagle 1969
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Postby SM-890 » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:37 pm

BSA's web site area for BOR training states
A board can expect a Scout to be neat in appearance and properly uniformed.


http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/suppl ... index.html

So, wouldn't the bigger question be if a uniform is not a requirement, why are we training those who conduct the BOR to expect a scout in uniform?

edit by optimist: provided a more direct link to your resource
Committee - Troop 890
Cherokee/Pickens District
Atlanta Area Council
http://www.bsatroop890.org
SM-890
First Class
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Atlanta Area Council

Postby ASM-142 » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:32 pm

They can expect the uniform but can not require the uniform.
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
ASM-142
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:24 am
Location: Monmouth Council, New Jersey

Postby optimist » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:57 pm

ASM-142 wrote:They can expect the uniform but can not require the uniform.


I agree with you but it should be pointed out that the Eagle Board of Review would be at least the SIXTH board of review in which he would have been expected to be properly uniformed. If he hasn't figured out after a half dozen times...

Also, the definition of expect is "to look for with reason or justification." If the board is justified in its expectations, then the board would also have reason to hold failure to be in uniform as a mark against the Scout.
optimist
Adv Chair
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:25 pm
Location: Atlanta Area Council

Postby OldGreyBear » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:57 pm

according to BSA publication 33088E, under the section "Review for Tenderfoot through Life Ranks and Eagle Palms, on page 30 it says

"the Scout should be neat in his appearance and his uniform should be as correct as possible..."

It doesn't say must be a complete uniform, only "correct as possible" yes it has holes big enough to drive a truck through, but we arent there to judge his sartorial splendor.
OldGreyBear
Ephesians 6:4
Fathers, do not irritate and provoke your children to anger [do not exasperate them to resentment], but rear them [tenderly] in the training and discipline and the counsel and admonition of the Lord.
OldGreyBear
Eagle
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:17 am
Location: Minsi Trails Council

Postby FrankJ » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:49 pm

If a scout is not in uniform for any BOR why is a reasonable question to ask. I can think of a lot of good reasons not to be in uniform. If the scout has a full uniform and just can't be bothered to wear it, he wouldn't pass a BOR I sat on. (Largely a mute point since I am an ASM)
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Postby evmori » Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:07 am

If a Scout shows up for any BOR not in uniform, there is nothing wrong with asking why he isn't in uniform. But if the only reason a Scout doesn't pass a BOR is because he isn't in uniform is just plain wrong and should be appealed & will win upon appeal.

If a uniform isn't required for membership, a uniform can't be required for advancement.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Postby ASM-142 » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:18 am

I agree with Ed on this one. If a scout came to a BOR without a uniform this would be a discussion point to include asking what the scout thought of the uniform and why he is not wearing it. I would also ask the scout if he thinks he deserves to be advanced if his justification for not wearing a uniform does not make sense (it is in the wash, I did not feel like wearing it, etc,).
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
ASM-142
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:24 am
Location: Monmouth Council, New Jersey

Postby cballman » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:09 pm

a uniform is not required for membership. we all know that now. NO problem. the major issue that i see here is that a kid has a full uniform but refuses to wear it. I now have a problem with that. what does that show about scout spirit? If I were a scoutmaster and had to sign off on scout spirit on the boys and knew they had a full uniform and wouldnt wear it then yes I would have a problem with that. now the Eagle Board If a child that shows up to an Eagle BOR without his full uniform that he owns and has wore many times in the past then YES I have a problem with that. no we cannot make a child wear a uniform but when you a proud to be a scout and when you have the uniform then wear it. It will not only make you, your son, and your mother proud. but since this has gone overboard about uniforms and not Eagle BOR then I will shut up now.
Charlie tha BEAR with issues
"if you aint a BEAR your snackfood"
cballman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 489
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:41 am
Location: Bluegrass Council KY

Postby evmori » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:38 pm

What does it say about his Scout Spirit? Scout Spirit is defined as
living the Scout Oath & Law in your everyday life.
How does that translate into wearing or not wearing a uniform.

I feel all Scout should wear their uniforms to all Scouting events. I do. I try to lead by example. But if a Scout shows up for a BOR without his uniforms on, I would ask where it was just as a point of information. I would never not advance a Scout solely because he was not in uniform. That's just wrong.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Postby Hubert » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:33 pm

I see all sides on this. I do not think you should be held back because of no uniform, BUT, when going to a BoR, you should have your uniform, its a scout spirit thing, you show your spirit to scouting, by wearing the uniform. Soldiers in the army do the same, they show their spirit and they wear the uniform proudly. I think if he has one, he should wear it. Mainly to a BoR, because that is where you advance farther down your scouting trail. I just think wearing your uniform is showing scout spirit.
Justin
Asst. Scoutmaster
Eagle Scout Class of 2008
13 Years in scouting.
Hubert
Eagle
 
Posts: 460
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:10 pm
Location: Tall Pine Council

Postby optimist » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:54 pm

evmori wrote:What does it say about his Scout Spirit? Scout Spirit is defined as
living the Scout Oath & Law in your everyday life.
How does that translate into wearing or not wearing a uniform.


Just to be ornery, I'll take that one on...

A Scout is Loyal - How is loyalty shown when you don't honor the organization to which you belong by wearing its uniform?

A Scout is Courteous - Is it courteous to show up for a formal activity and not wear the the appropriate attire?

A Scout is Obedient - If a Scout knows his troop leadership expects their Scouts to wear as much uniform as they have to Boards of Review, what purpose does it serve to be defiant?

As I said above, I agree that no Scout should ever have his BOR turned down simply because he isn't in uniform. However, the act of choosing to not wear the uniform when the Scout knows the uniform is expected is an act of defiance and not in accordance with the Scout Law.

Please note, Ed, that I only answered the question because you asked. The point of view I've expressed is definitely a bit far to one end of the spectrum but only about as far as ignoring the action of the Scout is to the other. The world is not so black and white.
optimist
Adv Chair
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:25 pm
Location: Atlanta Area Council

Postby ASM-142 » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:46 am

A Scout is Obedient - If a Scout knows his troop leadership expects their Scouts to wear as much uniform as they have to Boards of Review, what purpose does it serve to be defiant?

This does not mean that a leader can ask a scout to do something that is not required.

Not wearing the uniform to a BOR, which is not required, is acceptable even if the scout leaders expect that a uniform be worn. This is something that I do no agree with but those are the rules that we must follow when we agreed to be leaders and donate an hour a week.
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
ASM-142
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:24 am
Location: Monmouth Council, New Jersey

Postby evmori » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:58 am

A Scout is Obedient - If a Scout knows his troop leadership expects their Scouts to wear as much uniform as they have to Boards of Review, what purpose does it serve to be defiant?


And a Scout being obedient would know that his leaders would not add to the requirements by requiring him to wear his uniform to a BOR.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Postby ccjj » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:09 am

Our troop conducts BoR's as soon as we can get committee members together. Sometimes this occurs during the middle of a campout or other activity. Most of the time, the Scout at least has his troop t-shirt on and if his uniform is around he will be expected to wear it. But, if we can assemble the committee, and the Scout is ready, we will let him have the BoR regardless of what he is wearing.

ccjj
ccjj
Star
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:15 am
Location: Tall Pine Council

Postby optimist » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:12 am

evmori wrote:
A Scout is Obedient - If a Scout knows his troop leadership expects their Scouts to wear as much uniform as they have to Boards of Review, what purpose does it serve to be defiant?


And a Scout being obedient would know that his leaders would not add to the requirements by requiring him to wear his uniform to a BOR.


Sorry, that won't wash. I used the exact same word that the official BSA training document used - "expect." And, as noted previously, official BSA policy says:

Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures wrote:The Scout should be neat in appearence and his uniform should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly.


The above quote comes from the section on Review for Tenderfoot Through Life Ranks and Eagle Palms. I guess you could argue that since this wasn't included in the section on Eagle boards that it's required for every BOR except Eagle. Opinion?
optimist
Adv Chair
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:25 pm
Location: Atlanta Area Council

Eagle BORs- scout is not successful

Postby jhawk » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:03 am

Why would anybody bother to join scouts, advance through the ranks, and not bother to wear the uniform? Every boy in my troop has at least the shirt, and most have pants. The ones who don't have pants wear the school uniform pants with their shirts. They all wear the shirt tucked in with the neckerchief for every meeting at least. We have never had to tell anyone to get the uniform--they just do it because everyone else does. Why in the world wouldn't any boy who wants to be a scout not wear at least the shirt and troop neckerchief? Frankly, I think it should be required. If the BSA can insist that you have to believe in God to be a scout, then asking you to wear the shirt is a pretty simple thing. If the boys are into scouting enough to advance, they ought to look the part. I would be happy to locate a shirt for any boy who can't buy one and help the boy find a way to earn the money for a complete uniform if money were an issue for a family. I'd bet most adults in scouting would do the same.
jhawk
Star
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:41 pm
Location: Kansas

Postby evmori » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:08 am

I know this sounds picky but "should be" instead of "must be" makes the difference. The inference is "yeah ya should be in uniform but you don't have to be".

I have posted this before - I like the uniform. I wear mine to all Scout functions. I try to lead by example. But never would I deny advancement to a Scout because he didn't have his uniform on for a BOR.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Postby jr56 » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:59 pm

I always equate a BOR to going for a job interview. Would you go to a job interview in blue jeans, a dirty t-shirt and no socks or shoes?
So why would you go to a scout BOR without your uniform. I agree with ED, you can't deny a boy advancement because he is not wearing his uniform. I have always handled that by asking the boy where his uniform was, if it wasn't a good reason, I would simply defer the BOR until the scout was properly prepared (uniform).
It is common knowledge in any troop I've ever been involved with, that you wear your uniform to a BOR.
Just my opinion for what it's worth, before everybody gets their flamethrowers out.
jr56
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:15 am
Location: Glacier's Edge Council, WI

PreviousNext

Return to Eagle Scout

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests