Eagle BORs - Scout is not successful

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Postby Mrw » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:55 am

The motivation ultimately doesn't matter here.

If you refrain from robbing a bank because you don't want to go to jail, is that any different from not robbing the bank because it is morally the wrong thing to do? The motivations are quite different, but the end results is the same.

If the boy says it because it looks good on the resume, you should appreciate his honesty and get over the motivation.
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Postby ASM-142 » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:12 am

FrankJ wrote:
If the SM signed off on the leadership position then that requirement is complete. You can not have the scout go back and do more leadership


Of course you can. In this case it was clear he was not in a recognized leadership position for the required time. The BOR is not a rubber stamp. If it finds legitimate issues it can turn down the scout. What is required is that they document the issue and what is required to correct it. If the troop has done it's job, a scout who is not ready should not get to the BOR. That is why a scout is rarely turned downed out the BOR.

Wasn't there a court case about a scout being turned down for eagle because he did not believe in God?


Using this logic the BOR can question all requirements that a SM has already signed and turn down an Eagle candidate if they feel they did not satisfy the requirement even though the SM has already signed off that the scout did.

This is adding to the requirements for the rank.
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Postby MDEagle » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:04 am

Having never sat of an EBOR, I have some questions/comments...

What exactly is the intent of the EBOR? Based on comments on this thread, I don't think it's to quiz a boy on Scouting skills.

Is it to provide a wrap-up brief of his Eagle Project?

Is is a chance for him to reflect on his Scouting career... what he's learned, how he will apply it?

What constitutes a boy "not being prepared"

It seems odd that a Board member would ask a controversial question (like, if he had to choose, which point of Scout Law the boy would eliminate) and then be upset when the boy provided a controversial, but honest, reply.

In ancient times, when I was in the armed forces, we would have to sit for qualification boards... I don't think it was the same thing, and the intent was to test for specific skills and knowledge... but we did have "murder boards" which were a run-through, or practice board. It gave the person sitting for the qualification an idea of what was important and would identify deficiencies before the actual qualification board. Do Scouts have any idea of what to expect at an EBOR, other than the BOR for previous ranks?

Again, in ancient times, junior personnel were encouraged to "audit" boards that they would be sitting before in the near future. I don't think BSA allows that, do they?

Thanks.
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Postby FrankJ » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:16 am

Using this logic the BOR can question all requirements that a SM has already signed and turn down an Eagle candidate if they feel they did not satisfy the requirement even though the SM has already signed off that the scout did.

This is adding to the requirements for the rank.


I guess I am guilty as charged. No I do not think this is adding requirements. Questioning the SM's performance is part of the review. Normally the SM should pass & his signature not lightly over turned.

Scout spirit & how the eagle project was performed are the biggest questions to be answered during an eagle BOR. (both signed off by the SM)

Even though most scouts who get this for down the trail & should be passed, BORs shouldn't approve the few that are not. For the eagle rank to mean what it means you have to keep the standard.

What BOR cann't do:

Retest: IE tie a bowline. (which actually isn't an eagle requirement.)

Disallow a merit badge. Once it is earned, it is not subject to review. The only grounds for taking back an merit badge is it not being signed off be an approved counsilor. Considering how I suspect most councils keep their list, a difficult thing to prove.[/u]
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Postby ASM-142 » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:29 am

Questioning the SM's performance is part of the review


This should not be part of a BOR. If the SM is not doing his/her job why should this be held against a scout. The BOR can ask about his opinion of the SM, other leaders, and the troop overall but again this should not be held against the scout.
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Postby FrankJ » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:33 pm

I would have to agree that you do not hold the failings the SM against the scout. BUT when a scout clearly has not met a requirement, it is reasonable that they do what is required to meet the requirement. No more, no less. If not why bother with the BOR? Just let the SM hand the scout the rank after the SMC.

If a BOR finds issues with the troop & SM, that is part of the process of a BOR. You do not hold it against the scout. You take it to the commitee, and / or discuss with the SM. The goal here would be to improve the troop.

Sorry if this has drifted from the original topic
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Postby jr56 » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:56 pm

On 2nd thought, I heard of a case where the project was approved, but when the boy came for his BOR, all the work on the project had been done by the boy and his father. The boy had not demonstrated any organization or leadership skills, so he was told he had to do another project.
It was appealed to the council, and the coouncil upheld the district's decsision.
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Postby RMM » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:36 pm

Not prepared at EBOR.

I would expect the scout to come in uniform, having been in scouts for a while the uniform should be close to 100% on an inspection (inspection not officially done - yet the scout is proud to be in uniform, it is clean, etc). The scout should be albe to clearly discuss scouting, his project, his accomplishments, and address questions on how scouting has changed has improved his skill sets in leadership and be able to address questions on how scouting could be improved.

The youth was not in a complete unifom, was so nervous he could not be involved in a conversation about the above issues. Was not able to discuss his project, accomplihsments, etc. So not prepared. (I would think this a troop issue vs a boy issue - we have practice EBOR for our scouts). The scout agreed he was not prepared and was willing to come back next month. Did very well as he was prepared (uniform, albe to discuss his project, etc).

My personal take on the BOR is that it is like a job interview. Get the scouts used to this type of interview and they will do well in later life. As SM I think of the SM conference as a performance review. Discuss the positives and provide constructive critisim (sp) on areas that could be improved. Help the scouts to be self reflective on areas that are the scouts's strentghts and areas the scout has identified that he needs to work on (weaknesses). If you are able to do this, then you do well on interviews for professional school - IMHO.
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Postby evmori » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:04 pm

Requiring a Scout appear before the EBOR in uniform is adding to the requirements, hence forbidden. A uniform is not required to be a member of the BSA.
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Postby RMM » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:40 pm

evmori wrote:Requiring a Scout appear before the EBOR in uniform is adding to the requirements, hence forbidden. A uniform is not required to be a member of the BSA.


Ed,

I had not thought of it that way. I think I can see your point. Yet am struggling with this one. Should not the scout come to any BOR appropriately dressed? If the scout showed up in a bathing suit and bare foot, would the scout be ready to advance to the next rank?

Something to discuss at the next Council Advancement Committee meeting.
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Postby Mrw » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:56 pm

Unless money is clearly an issue, by the time a scout is ready for an EBOR, expecting a uniform shouldn't be an issue.

That being ssaid, if a boy came to his EBOR without a uniform, I would certainly ask if he had one and why he didn't wear it. And go from there as to whether he was prepared and ready to present himself in a manner befitting an Eagle.
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Postby evmori » Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:15 am

RMM wrote:
evmori wrote:Requiring a Scout appear before the EBOR in uniform is adding to the requirements, hence forbidden. A uniform is not required to be a member of the BSA.


Ed,

I had not thought of it that way. I think I can see your point. Yet am struggling with this one. Should not the scout come to any BOR appropriately dressed? If the scout showed up in a bathing suit and bare foot, would the scout be ready to advance to the next rank?

Something to discuss at the next Council Advancement Committee meeting.


Robert,

Should the Scout be judged on appearance? What if he is in full uniform but has blue hair & tons of piercings? Would that be better than a bathing suit & bare feet?

Mrw,

Expecting a uniform at any BOR is adding to the requirements.
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Postby Mrw » Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:17 am

Please look a little more carefully at what I said. I said that although we ought to expect a boy to show up at his EBOR in uniform, if he does not, he should still have the BOR, but be asked why he did not wear his uniform.

That would be very telling as to his motivations and his pride in the program.

I am the one in our troop who will argue with the CC about allowing a boy to have a BOR if he is not in uniform. I do generally draw the line at no BOR without a book though, because that is how we can ascertain he actually has all the requirements signed off. We also can ask about why something might have taken a particularly long time and help set reasonable goals for the next rank if we can see the book and see just where the boy is.
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Postby evmori » Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:52 am

Mrw wrote:Please look a little more carefully at what I said. I said that although we ought to expect a boy to show up at his EBOR in uniform, if he does not, he should still have the BOR, but be asked why he did not wear his uniform.

That would be very telling as to his motivations and his pride in the program.

I am the one in our troop who will argue with the CC about allowing a boy to have a BOR if he is not in uniform. I do generally draw the line at no BOR without a book though, because that is how we can ascertain he actually has all the requirements signed off. We also can ask about why something might have taken a particularly long time and help set reasonable goals for the next rank if we can see the book and see just where the boy is.


I agree it would be nice if all Scouts showed up in their uniform for BOR's. But if they don't that's OK. And why really shouldn't matter. Remember, a uniform isn't required to be a member of the BSA.

I agree with the Scout having his handbook with him. But, if he doesn't the board can continue & the book reviewed at a later date.
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Postby ronin718 » Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:55 am

While some might argue requiring the boy to show for his BOR might be considered adding a requirement, I think it falls under the "demonstrate Scout spirit". This is a Scouting activity, in a Scouting environment, so expecting the participants to be in uniform is not an unreasonable concept.
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Postby wagionvigil » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:09 am

has anyone erver had a scout show up for an Eagle BOR without having at least a uniform shirt on?
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Postby Mrw » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:17 am

No, and they can usually scrounge a pair of pants from somewhere too. We did have one who bought scout pants for the first time to have for the BOR and his COH. He probably only ever wore them twice.
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Postby wagionvigil » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:25 am

My suggestion is if no one has ever had a scout not wear a uniform then lets drop this. There are so many what if's and this is one of them.
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Postby RMM » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:12 pm

Should the Scout be judged on appearance? What if he is in full uniform but has blue hair & tons of piercings? Would that be better than a bathing suit & bare feet?


Blue hair and piercings. No problem here. I see you have met some of my youth. One of the best young men I have met is an Eagle Scout with a mowhawk that changes colors frequently and earings.
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Postby ASM-142 » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:21 pm

ronin718 wrote:While some might argue requiring the boy to show for his BOR might be considered adding a requirement, I think it falls under the "demonstrate Scout spirit". This is a Scouting activity, in a Scouting environment, so expecting the participants to be in uniform is not an unreasonable concept.


Demonstrating scout spirit is a requirement that gets signed off by the SM and should not be part of a BOR.
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