Eagle BORs - Scout is not successful

Information to help with the rank of Eagle Scout.

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Postby WeeWillie » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:42 pm

Among the purposes of an Eagle BOR is to insure uniformity and preserve the integrity of the Eagle rank. Occasionally, that means disapproving an application, and allowing the applicant time to correct whatever problems were encountered. When that happens the EBOR has to justify their decision to the Scout and the District/Council Advancement Committee. There is no reason to believe this didn’t happen, however, I am also interested in knowing the specific problems with this applicant’s board. It might shed some insights into how EBORs assess advancement.

In addition to counselling the applicant I suggest the unit commisioner visit the troop and help the troop better prepare their Eagle applicants.

Our troop helps Eagle applicants prepare for their BORs by holding a practice BOR. Our practice BORs include, at least 1 Eagle, and we try to get someone outside the troop. We use the standard questions found on many websites. It is a definite confidence builder.
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Postby ccjj » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:34 pm

The Scout could not answer the questions that were asked of him. He couldn't tell how he showed leadership while doing his project. He admitted that his father did a majority of the work. He couldn't tell how he had shown leadership in the troop. With almost every question that was asked of him, he had to ask "what do you mean by that?" He kept his head down, and mumbled his answers.

It was the district chairmans decision to have him wait 3 months. Why? I am not sure, that was his call. He told the boy what he needs to work on, and said he would get a written statement in the next couple of days.

I like the idea of having a practice Eagle board. It seems it would really help to better prepare the boy. I have seen examples of questions that I have found on the internet. I may have to print these off for my troop to use.
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Postby WeeWillie » Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:51 am

I suspect the reason your Eagle candidate could not describe his leadership experience is that he doesn't have much to begin with. As he admitted, his Dad did most of the work for his Eagle project. That is typical for too many units whose adults are more concerned about rank advancement than accomplishment. I've had Scouts participate in Eagle projects for Scouts in other troops and they report back that dad did most of the work. Several months ago we had a Scout on this list complain that an Eagle candidate sat in his van listening to music while others lead his project.

How old was the Scout?

What adult POR does his dad hold?

Like I said earlier, a commissioner needs to visit the troop.

Well, its off to our 1st camping trip of the 07-08 Program.
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Postby Quailman » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:42 am

[OT]I helped at an Eagle project where the boy did a wonderful job leading the project. Another boy mentioned having helped with one the evening before, but wasn't sure whose it was. Someone had called his mom, who volunteered him. He thought it was to be for one of the boys (SM's son) who was there helping, but the SM wasn't there, and the work was led by another boy's mother. I suspect even the help was organized by the mother, since only boys living right nearby were contacted.[/OT]

So how does waiting three months change the fact that this candidate has not demonstrated leadership?
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Postby wagionvigil » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:50 am

So let me get this right! The BOR was questioning what the Scout put on his application and those things that the SM signed off that he had done?

If you go to several web sites you will find some questions that might be asked at a EBOR I do not believe I ever saw questions that questions what was on the application. :evil:
This boy may have doen noting BUT the SM should not have approved the Application and the Project should not hae been signed off .JMHO
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Postby evmori » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:02 pm

wagionvigil wrote:So let me get this right! The BOR was questioning what the Scout put on his application and those things that the SM signed off that he had done?

If you go to several web sites you will find some questions that might be asked at a EBOR I do not believe I ever saw questions that questions what was on the application. :evil:
This boy may have doen noting BUT the SM should not have approved the Application and the Project should not hae been signed off .JMHO


I would agree with wagon about the SM not signing off but since the SM did, it appears the EBOR asked the right questions. I don't know of any questions an EBOR is not allowed to ask.
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Postby FrankJ » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:32 pm

To me a review is a review. Everything is on the table (except earned merit badges). The board should not be retesting, but asking about how he met the requirements is very reasonable. Final approval on the eagle project rests with the board. I think this is not so much what, but whether the scout showed leadership on his project.

The 3 months bit by itself could be right or wrong. The letter to the scout should detail what he needs to do in those three months to meet the rank requirements. Ideally the scout should have an understanding of all this leaving the board.
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Postby ASM-142 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:56 am

ccjj wrote:The Scout could not answer the questions that were asked of him. He couldn't tell how he showed leadership while doing his project. He admitted that his father did a majority of the work. He couldn't tell how he had shown leadership in the troop. With almost every question that was asked of him, he had to ask "what do you mean by that?" He kept his head down, and mumbled his answers.

It was the district chairmans decision to have him wait 3 months. Why? I am not sure, that was his call. He told the boy what he needs to work on, and said he would get a written statement in the next couple of days.

I like the idea of having a practice Eagle board. It seems it would really help to better prepare the boy. I have seen examples of questions that I have found on the internet. I may have to print these off for my troop to use.

Not approving this candidate for failure to show leadership on his project is acceptable. However, the corrective action should be to re-do the project (or do another project). Waiting three months will not resolve this issue.

Leadership in the troop should of been signed off by the SM prior to the EBOR and can not be a reason to not approve an Eagle candidate.

Prior to your participation in the EBOR, did you go to training to learn what questions you can and can not answer and what reasons are valid for not approving an Eagle candidate?
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Postby Fibonacci » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:42 am

Prior to your participation in the EBOR, did you go to training to learn what questions you can and can not answer and what reasons are valid for not approving an Eagle candidate?

I don't know of any training in our district or council regarding Boards of Review at all, and certainly not EBOR. We "chat" about Boards of Review at Roundtable, usually once a year, but there isn't a "training". A specific training session sounds like a good idea.

Can you give me an outline or an overview of the EBOR training your council offers? Do you ask non-Scouters to attend this training?
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Postby FrankJ » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:43 am

Leadership in the troop should of been signed off by the SM prior to the EBOR and can not be a reason to not approve an Eagle candidate.


I disagree. A review is a review. This includes what a SM signs off on. I do believe that if there is an issue with what the SM has signed off that the issue is bigger than the scout & the committee & the SM need to get on the same page.
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Postby ASM-142 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:05 pm

FrankJ wrote:
Leadership in the troop should of been signed off by the SM prior to the EBOR and can not be a reason to not approve an Eagle candidate.


I disagree. A review is a review. This includes what a SM signs off on. I do believe that if there is an issue with what the SM has signed off that the issue is bigger than the scout & the committee & the SM need to get on the same page.


I agree that the EBOR can review this but advancement can not be turned down when the requirement has aleady been signed off.
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
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Postby ASM-142 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:08 pm

Fibonacci wrote:
Prior to your participation in the EBOR, did you go to training to learn what questions you can and can not answer and what reasons are valid for not approving an Eagle candidate?

I don't know of any training in our district or council regarding Boards of Review at all, and certainly not EBOR. We "chat" about Boards of Review at Roundtable, usually once a year, but there isn't a "training". A specific training session sounds like a good idea.

Can you give me an outline or an overview of the EBOR training your council offers? Do you ask non-Scouters to attend this training?


http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/suppl ... 18-625.pdf
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Postby ccjj » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:56 pm

The only "EBOR training" our council offers is a chat during roundtable. There is usually one RT per year which is devoted to holding a BoR. I have been to this a couple of times.

It wasn't my decision or choice to turn this Scout down. There were a total of 6 people on the board, and since it had to be unamious, the Scout was turned down at this time.

It wasn't my decision to make him wait 3 months and come back. The chairman decided that. Why? I guess you would have to ask him, since he didn't tell us what waiting 3 months would do. All I know, is that after the specified time, the Scout will ask for another BoR, and it will have the same 6 people on it.
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Postby smtroop168 » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:58 pm

I don't understand why the same board members would sit on his next EBOR. I assume the scout appealed the decision (or maybe this procedure wasn't explained to him). The 1st BOR is to provide a written explanation to him on why he was not successful. The appeal may contain his concerns on the length of time given to fix whatever issues the 1st EBOR had. The District will get his appeal and hold a 2nd EBOR with members of the District Advancement Committee. They are the ones that will evaluate if he has met the items contained in the letter from the 1st EBOR and may or may not ask for input from the 1st EBOR members. Any repeat members of any BOR to me prejudices the board.

RWSmith...am I off on this? Thanks.
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Postby FrankJ » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:47 pm

From what CCJJ says it was the District chairman sat on the board & came up with the 3 month idea. As district chairman he can at say who will be the districts representative will be on the next board. Any appeal to district will be a formality on the way to council since the same district chairman will have the final say at the district level.
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Postby wagionvigil » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:54 am

When you appeal a EBOR the next BOR is on the COuncil Level not on the District Level
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Postby smtroop168 » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:59 am

Sorry Jerry I meant Council. My point is that the appeal process takes it out of the hands of the Troop and there should be all new members on the board to evaluate him and the letter he received fromt he 1st BOR. The DC should recuse himself as well.

I've been on 2 EBOR appeals. The membership of the 1st one was from the District Advancement Committee (we have 7 members). The 2nd membership was all the DACs and CAC (there are 6 members) because the scout's dad had appealed directly to National and bypassed the council.

Both boys passed. The second one was arrested the next day for bringing weapons to school. Yes he received his medal.
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Postby WeeWillie » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:05 am

SMTROOP168

Perhaps next time your council will not be so quick to over rule a EBOR. Eagle will remain a legacy of honor as long as we select honorable Scouts to its ranks. Unfortunately that is not happenning in too many cases.
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Postby smtroop168 » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:44 pm

WeeWillie...I don't disagree with you. Unfortunately the board felt "subtle pressure" from National since the appeal went over the council's head to begin with. During the board, the scout wasn't the sharpest tack I've ever seen but there was no reason not to pass him. The arrest happened the next day but "a card laid was a card played".
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Postby wagionvigil » Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:12 pm

Once there was a conviction the council advancement committee could recind the Eagle Award.
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