Dual Registration - Youth

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Dual Registration - Youth

Postby jimbryan1952 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:38 pm

Reading posts here I see a lot of the very same odd rules that we have operated under in our troop for years. I've been an Asst Scout Master with this troop until 3 years ago when I formed a Venture Crew with some of the older scouts. Tonight we were getting ready to do rechartering and one of my Crew parents was told that a "NEW" bylaw for the troop forbid any scout in the troop being dual registered and she needed to decide if she wanted her son to be in the troop or not. But if he dual registered in the crew he would not be allowed to be part of the troop. What kind of BS is this? Is this even legal under BSA rules? Last time I looked dual registration was encouraged.
Last edited by RWSmith on Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Renamed topic; added "Sticky" status.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby wagionvigil » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:46 pm

Welcome to the forum. Your troop is making up their own rules. How you handle it is up to you. Being the person I am . I would be shaking someones tree at the service center.BSA encourages dual registration in a troop and crew. I encourage dual in a Crew and a Troop so the Boy is counted in the venturing numbers. Remember once a scout is first class and is 14 or out of grade 8 he can work on Star life and eagle through the crew.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby jimbryan1952 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:05 pm

Thank you for not just a quick reply, but one that makes sense. In this troop and unfortunately even the council, all is ruled by the dollar not by common sense. I am no stranger to rattleing cages at council, but all it has netted me is constantly working from the outside to change the "good old boy" network. The troop was founded by an indivudual over 40 years ago that holds no office in BSA now other than to micro manage everything about the troop. The sign on his door says CEO. His son in law is the SM, and both grandsons were Eagles long before they were ready. One of them was a big discipline problem. On one occassion he and two other boys were brought before the committee for un scout like actions on a campout. The other two were banned from all scout meetings and outings for 6 months. The grandson was not punished because he and his dad had already paid up for Philmont and it wouldnt be fair to not let him go. I could go on and on.....but it is way too boring. I am really trying to provide an awesome environment for my youth to have fun, and experince high adventure. I have a small crew because the troop directs anyone who asks to their other crew and I have talked with parents who don't even know we exist. My crew kids are enthustiastic, have fun together and act like family.....sometime too much like brothers and sisters. :D All I'm looking for is to let the scout be a scout, and be a contributing member of the troop as well.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:33 am

I take it that the Charter Organization for your Troop, also charters a Venturing Crew, and that your Venturing Crew is not that Crew, and is chartered by a different Charter Organization?

While I might not agree with what they are doing, I can understand why the Troop's Charter Org would rather that it's Scouts join it's Crew if they are interested in Venturing.

However, you can't put all of the blame on the Troop for Troop parents not knowing about your Crew. Why aren't the Scouts, and their parents, doing their own research on local Crews? It is easy to call your local Council and ask for info on area Crews. If you put your zip code in BeAScout.org, under Venturing, you will get a listing of all Crews in your area. You should have your Crew listed. Contact your local Council about how to enter the info if it is not. If the Scouts in the Troop, who are also in your Crew, enjoy the Crew so much, why are they not telling the other Scouts, and others, about it?

Since the Troop, and your Crew, have different Chartering Organizations, how would the Troop have any idea of what other BSA units their Scouts register with? The Council does not inform units, why should the Scouts?

If that Troop is so awful, perhaps you should find a different Troop for your son(s). I would also make a point to keep Crew activities entirely separate from those of the Troop.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:31 am

Contact Chuck Treadway from down your way see if he can give you some help. Chuck is in the Atlanta Area but has Big Time national Connections.
Also I read into your original post that they were not allowed to register with any Crew is this Correct? I also will tell you that if you come up with some super activities that the troop does not do it will not matter the boys will register anyway.
Does the same CO sponsor your crew? If so find another CO.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby FrankJ » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:59 am

Sounds like there is friction between the adult leadership in the crew & troop. Until that is fixed you are always going to have issues. If you have the same CO you might go to them for a referee.

They probably cannot make the no dual registration bylaw stick in an official way, but hold it against the scout in other ways. I would look for a way to fight this battle without making the youth the cannon fodder.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby cdwscout » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:14 am

We've had some problems with dual registration. Our troop/crew meet at the same time, so although you can technically be registered in both, you can only really "be" in one, and still go to some of the other's outings (e.g., be in the crew but go to MBU/camp). Unless you have a similar situation, I would say that dual-registration should be encouraged, not discouraged.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:52 pm

jimbryan1952 wrote:Reading posts here I see a lot of the very same odd rules that we have operated under in our troop for years. I've been an Asst Scout Master with this troop until 3 years ago when I formed a Venture Crew with some of the older scouts. Tonight we were getting ready to do rechartering and one of my Crew parents was told that a "NEW" bylaw for the troop forbid any scout in the troop being dual registered and she needed to decide if she wanted her son to be in the troop or not. But if he dual registered in the crew he would not be allowed to be part of the troop. What kind of BS is this? Is this even legal under BSA rules? Last time I looked dual registration was encouraged.


Another classic case where the adults screw things up for the kids.

There is no restriction for scouts to be dual registered in Crews and Troops..happens all the time. Turn it around on them and ask the Committee to show you where is says a boy cannot be dual registered. The underlying reasons for the "NEW" bylaw is the issue. They obviously are paranoid that you will steal older boys from the troop.

Don't know if its an advancement issue but the new GTA says:

4.3.1.4 Boy Scout Advancement in Venturing and Sea Scouts
Venturers and Sea Scouts who earned First Class rank as registered Boy Scouts or Varsity Scouts are qualifi ed
until their 18th birthday to continue with Boy Scout advancement. If desired, they can maintain multiple
(dual) registration in a troop or team, and also in a crew or ship, and work on ranks in either unit.
Wherever the member is registered, the Scoutmaster and crew Advisor or Skipper decide with the young man which one will oversee his advancement. If the Advisor or Skipper does so, but is unfamiliar with Boy Scouting, the district advancement committee should identify an experienced Scouter to assist. It is important for Venturing and Sea Scout leaders to understand that Boy Scout advancement procedures must be followed.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:28 pm

If a crew is set up correctly they do not meet Weekly. Some only meet once and plan all their activities for the year. Some meet Monthly and many meet quarterly. A crew is not designed to meet on a weekly basis.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby cdwscout » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:31 pm

wagionvigil wrote:If a crew is set up correctly they do not meet Weekly. Some only meet once and plan all their activities for the year. Some meet Monthly and many meet quarterly. A crew is not designed to meet on a weekly basis.


Not to get too off topic, but most crews are vastly different from each other, some set to meet monthly/quarterly, while others are set to run well meeting weekly.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:40 pm

most do not!
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby biglou » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:23 am

I don't see dual registration as a problem. The BSA already allows that. I also read that a new "bylaw" was created by the Troop. Would that not be considered "unconstitutional" or whatever the BSA term for that is?
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:11 pm

Unnecessary. All Troop "By-laws" are.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby RWSmith » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:11 pm

wagionvigil wrote:BSA encourages dual registration in a troop and crew.

True. In fact, smtroop168 quotes chapter-and-verse...

smtroop168 wrote:There is no restriction for scouts to be dual registered in Crews and Troops..happens all the time. Turn it around on them and ask the Committee to show you where is says a boy cannot be dual registered. The underlying reasons for the "NEW" bylaw is the issue. They obviously are paranoid that you will steal older boys from the troop.

Don't know if its an advancement issue but the new GTA says:

4.3.1.4 Boy Scout Advancement in Venturing and Sea Scouts
Venturers and Sea Scouts who earned First Class rank as registered Boy Scouts or Varsity Scouts are qualified until their 18th birthday to continue with Boy Scout advancement. If desired, they can maintain multiple (dual) registration in a troop or team, and also in a crew or ship, and work on ranks in either unit. ....

smtroop168 got it right. But, I will add this... if anybody institutes a "no dual-registration" policy, their justification (or belief) for instituting it simply doesn't matter. Regardless of whether it may or may not be "perceived" as an advancement issue, the fact of the matter is, regardless of what the he/she/it states their reasons are... it is advancement issue. PERIOD. Why? Because national says so.

While the new Guide To Advancement, Pub. No. 33088 (2011) does not officially replace the old Advancement Committee - Policies and Procedures, Pub. No. 33088 (2009), until January 1, 2012... it may still be referenced/used/applied now. Either way, both cover it:

BSA Advancement Policy manuals (both versions) wrote:Guide To Advancement, Pub. No. 33088 (2011)" - "No council, committee, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from advancement requirements."

Advancement Committee - Policies and Procedures, Pub. No. 33088 (2009)" - "No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from advancement requirements."

Do not let anyone think, for one second, that the above allows for any room for any exception. This simple statement is one of the pillars of the BSA program; and, it is written in such a manner as to ensure that every single adult (or group) involved in the BSA program, whether registered (i.e., Adult Leader) or not (i.e., parent or IH), whether personally aware or not (IOW, ignorance is no excuse here), are commanded not to create or assert any policy or action, directly or indirectly, that interferes with or causes any deviation from the NATIONAL advancement standards.

And last, but not least...

Boy Scouts of America ADULT APPLICATION, No. 524-501 wrote:"In signing this application, I have read the attached information and apply for registration with the Boy Scouts of America. I agree to comply with the Charter and Bylaws, and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America and the local council."

While we may not always agree with the stuff that national puts out (policies, standards, etc.), we are all obligated to do our very best to ensure that every youth (and parent for that matter) can, at the very least, have the expectation that s/he can feel confident in that the advancement standards in one (or more) unit(s!) is the same as every other unit, regardless of where s/he is participating.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:13 pm

:D
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby ThunderingWind » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:46 pm

smtroop168 wrote:Unnecessary. All Troop "By-laws" are.

?????? All Troop "Bylaws" are unconstitutional?

I would disagree to some degree on that. Several Troop "By-laws" as where the annual dues and fees requirement is explained to those that join/might join. Fundraising participation (how funds are distributed), summer camp payment and monthly outing payment expectations are also contained therein. Policies for use of Troop Equipment or the "Gentley Used Uniform" box are often placed in the "By-laws."

[Steps On Soap Box]This Dual Registration just ticks my off to no end. That group of adults needs to be publically kicked out of Scouting with their names published in the USA Today in a full page ad. :evil: [Steps Off Soap Box] I can work with things like the Tandem Bike and the Biking Merit Badge or the nights camping at Summer camp when Scout is assigned to a hooch or hut provided by the camp or the difference between the prone supported, fox-hole supported and seated bench supported firing positions. But this is just plain wrong.
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Re: Dual Registration

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:55 pm

ThunderingWind wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:Unnecessary. All Troop "By-laws" are.

?????? All Troop "Bylaws" are unconstitutional?

I would disagree to some degree on that. Several Troop "By-laws" as where the annual dues and fees requirement is explained to those that join/might join. Fundraising participation (how funds are distributed), summer camp payment and monthly outing payment expectations are also contained therein. Policies for use of Troop Equipment or the "Gentley Used Uniform" box are often placed in the "By-laws."



The way the term by-law is being used here is an edict...You will not be dual registered.

We don't call then "by-laws". We call them procedures and are internal only (we meet on Mondays etc) not violations or erroneous interpretations of BSA policy. Where we need to cite BSA policy (e.g. BORs), we just say we do BORs in accordance with the #33088.
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Re: Dual Registration - Youth

Postby kc9901mom » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:52 pm

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

So, apparently my idea of dual registering my kids is not acceptable according to the DAC unless my kid is a Venturer/Team/Sea Scout.
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Re: Dual Registration - Youth

Postby White Bear » Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:17 pm

So, apparently my idea of dual registering my kids is not acceptable according to the DAC unless my kid is a Venturer/Team/Sea Scout


Your DAC (District Advancement Chair?) is correct. The Troop/Crew/Team/Ship relationship is the ONLY way your boy can hold dual registration.

I've seen folks try it. But Troops talk to District. District talks to Council. Council talks to Region; and Region talks to National. Somewhere, someone will catch it.
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Re: Dual Registration - Youth

Postby kc9901mom » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:48 pm

Then why does National allow dual registration?

Some scouts that I have recently met from two different councils are dual registered in two different troops.
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