Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:33 pm

kwildman wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:Maybe this is just semantics but the ESLP is far from an individual effort. Depending on what kind of project it is, he needs to coordinate with many different people and resources to pull this off. I would guess that most EP are held away from the scouts meeting place so I would say it certainly is a trip or outing. How does a scout get his workforce to the worksite without transportation? Of course if an EP is not a Scouting Event, then the transportation rules don't apply either. Throw them all in the back of a pickup and head on out to the trail! Parents who bring their sons (especially younger boys...scouts or not) to an EP and see no adult supervision are likely to turn around. I believe most sponsoring organizations expect adults to be onsite (not to run the project..but to provide assistance as required by the Eagle Candidate).

The issue is whether or not an EP is a Scouting Activity. If you are of the opinion that it is, then the G2SS should apply (supervision, permits etc). If you think an EP can be done without these elements, then you fall on AskAndy's side of the issue.

The question still at National is to clarify this.


The fact that the project is held away from a meeting place does not make it either a Trip or an Outing. If Johnny Scout is doing his project at the park or a church he just tells the scouts where to be at what time. He does not have to arrange transportation for everyone that helps. I have never seen a coordinated car pooling effort for a EP that i have been involved in.

Your argument about throwing them in the back of a pickup truck is illogical and doesnt have anything at all to do with the question. The same for your comment about parents - a parent can always decide they are uncomfortable with the way things are and decide to pull their kid. It is not Johnny Scouts responsiblitly to make mom and dads happy.


It's an outing if you believe an EP is a Scouting Activity because a TP would be required. He does not have to arrange transportation but if he does (and we've had carpools around here), he should make sure all bases are covered. The G2SS strictly prohibits scouts from riding in the back of pick ups so without oversight this could be an issue. It may not be Johnny Scout's responsibility to make Moms and Dads happy but it is his responsibility to ensure his workers safety and if the parent perceive otherwise he might be doing his project by himself.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby FrankJ » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:03 pm

I guess four wheelers would be out too. :D Farm tractors as well. Do Bob cats count as tractors?
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:02 am

Klondike Sleds are okay. :)
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby kwildman » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:53 am

Ok so how many have ever filed a tour permit for a scout's EP?

It's a scout's project not a troop activity. The scout owns the project...it is his.

If the troop (as a group) decides to participate to help the scout and then organizes meeting times, carpooling, etc. then their participation would be a scout activity. The unit leaders would be required to meet all the applicable standards for the activity. This would fall on the Troop leadership and has NOTHING to do with the scout conducting the project. He can complete his project without the troop. If scouts just show up at the project site then it is not a troop activity - just a bunch of volunteers that happen to be scouts.

It is a scouting related activity but not a UNIT activity. Similarly, if multiple units show up to help it is not a District Activity or a Council Activity.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:11 am

kwildman wrote:Ok so how many have ever filed a tour permit for a scout's EP?

It's a scout's project not a troop activity. The scout owns the project...it is his.

If the troop (as a group) decides to participate to help the scout and then organizes meeting times, carpooling, etc. then their participation would be a scout activity. The unit leaders would be required to meet all the applicable standards for the activity. This would fall on the Troop leadership and has NOTHING to do with the scout conducting the project. He can complete his project without the troop. If scouts just show up at the project site then it is not a troop activity - just a bunch of volunteers that happen to be scouts.

It is a scouting related activity but not a UNIT activity. Similarly, if multiple units show up to help it is not a District Activity or a Council Activity.


Our Council requires TPs for EPs.

Part of the scout "owning his project" is for him to ensure he has an adequate work force so transportation of volunteers could be a key part of his successful completion. His responsibility...not the troop leadership.

We've pretty much agreed that an EP is not a Unit activity. So are you on the side of the issue that says the G2SS should apply or not?
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby cballman » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:39 pm

This might sound awful but I would hate to see how long a form and paperwork for the tour permit would be. Say if an EP has 50 people drive that would entail to get their license number, Insurance policy amounts, and make model and year of the vehicle. Dang that would almost be a project itself. That is if the Tour Permit was filled out correctly Right? That leads into another realm of items. So then with all this said above how can a council require a Tour Permit for an Eagle Project? Not trying to be the devil here but sometimes common sense must take place. If it is a Eagle Project that says to me that Yes it is a scouting activity. And then Yes the G2SS must be used as a guide.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby FrankJ » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:08 pm

I have a hard time thinking how to fill out a tour permit for an EP. It would mean committing the leaders that are on the permit to be there the entire time for one thing. Do you do it just for the major work days or for every thing? How ever, if my council required it I would do it.

G2SS does not address the specifics of an Eagle project, but certainly I would try to stay with the spirit if not the letter or it. The parts that are specifically applicable should be followed. Hopefully that is something that is discussed with the scout during the write up of the project. Different projects will have different levels of risk so obviously you will need different levels of oversight. What is required for a specific project should be in the write up the project.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby kwildman » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:29 pm

Yes G2SS does apply if it is a unit activity. G2SS is up to the registered adult leaders. It is not and should not be left up to the scouts any more than filing a tour permit should be. The adults are the one trained in these things and they are the ones responsible for knowing and complying with the requirements. Its great that your council requires a TP for EPs, but it has absolutely no bearing on any other council. Have fun filling out your paperwork.

The scout does have a responsibility for conducting his project safely and common sense should apply. If these things need to be addressed for a specific council then it should be done at the time that the youth does his planning for the project not after he has completed it.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:31 pm

cballman wrote:This might sound awful but I would hate to see how long a form and paperwork for the tour permit would be. Say if an EP has 50 people drive that would entail to get their license number, Insurance policy amounts, and make model and year of the vehicle. Dang that would almost be a project itself. That is if the Tour Permit was filled out correctly Right? That leads into another realm of items. So then with all this said above how can a council require a Tour Permit for an Eagle Project? Not trying to be the devil here but sometimes common sense must take place. If it is a Eagle Project that says to me that Yes it is a scouting activity. And then Yes the G2SS must be used as a guide.


Actually the TP is not as onerous as that. The Council knows drivers change from the time any TP is filled out and the event occurs since they required it in 2 weeks prior to the activity. If a project has multiple date, the TP is allowed to have multiple or a range of dates. That's the Common Sense approach they use. National gives Councils latitude in the EP approval process and in fact there is no appeal process if a project proposal or approval is turned down. Sooo...if the G2SS must be used as a guide, here's #12 of the Sweet Sixteen.

12. Permits and Notices.
BSA tour permits, council office registration, government or landowner authorization, and any similar formalities are the supervisor's responsibility when such are required. Appropriate notification should be directed to parents, enforcement authorities, landowners, and others as needed, before and after the activity.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:33 pm

FrankJ wrote:I have a hard time thinking how to fill out a tour permit for an EP. It would mean committing the leaders that are on the permit to be there the entire time for one thing. Do you do it just for the major work days or for every thing? How ever, if my council required it I would do it.

G2SS does not address the specifics of an Eagle project, but certainly I would try to stay with the spirit if not the letter or it. The parts that are specifically applicable should be followed. Hopefully that is something that is discussed with the scout during the write up of the project. Different projects will have different levels of risk so obviously you will need different levels of oversight. What is required for a specific project should be in the write up the project.


EXACTLY! We cover this in great detail during the review process.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:45 pm

kwildman wrote:Yes G2SS does apply if it is a unit activity. G2SS is up to the registered adult leaders. It is not and should not be left up to the scouts any more than filing a tour permit should be. The adults are the one trained in these things and they are the ones responsible for knowing and complying with the requirements. Its great that your council requires a TP for EPs, but it has absolutely no bearing on any other council. Have fun filling out your paperwork.

The scout does have a responsibility for conducting his project safely and common sense should apply. If these things need to be addressed for a specific council then it should be done at the time that the youth does his planning for the project not after he has completed it.


I thought we were all in agreement that an EP is NOT a unit activity.

Don't get testy....It will have a bearing if National's lawyers say the G2SS applies.

Here's what we recommend to the scout as part of his EP plan. "Have an adult assist as your Safety Team" They can help you ensure all the safety rules are followed (TP etc) and if they see something they don't think is going right to let you know so you can take care of it. IMHO...an Eagle Candidate is responsible for knowing and complying with the requirements and should use all available resources to help himself out.

Also remember there are other great safety tips in the G2SS other than 2 deep and TPs that can help an Eagle Candidate (like LNT, first aid, power tools and weather safety).
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