Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:44 pm

evmori wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:
evmori wrote:An Eagle Project is not a unit activity (AGREE)

nor does an Eagle Project have to include anyone from the Scout's unit (AGREE).

That said, all BSA rules & regs should be followed since an Eagle Project is a BSA activity.(So you would say the G2SS applies?) Yes it does.


Ed...I'm with you. AskAndy is not.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby WeeWillie » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:38 pm

Realistically, how many ELSPs are performed without troop scouts and adults?

As a SM I would require that an adult from the troop observe any project to insure that Scout rules are used and the Scout actually lead the project.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby kwildman » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:05 am

WeeWillie wrote:Realistically, how many ELSPs are performed without troop scouts and adults?

As a SM I would require that an adult from the troop observe any project to insure that Scout rules are used and the Scout actually lead the project.


patiently waiting for someone to through out the the obligatory "adding to the requirements" comment! :lol:

Also you better require 2 adults from the troop or we will keep feeding this thread. :D
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:44 am

I really was going to but that was going to open a can of worms so to speak. AS far as having a leader oversee to make sure it all up and up it most definitely is adding :lol: There ya go!
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby kwildman » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:03 am

Every now and then you need to open up a can of worms ....got to get the fishes to bite. :D
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby Cowboy » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:51 pm

I should have completed my thought last time. I would not hold it against the Scout that there was only one adult present. He is a youth member and should only concern himself with not being alone with a non relative adult for his own safety. The failure here was in the Troop leadership not being on top of the ball. Once again, I get kind of spoiled. All of the ELS projects that I have been involved with have included a lot of parent and leader involvement. We usually have 3 or more adults at a time. One of the benefits of a small Troop.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby cballman » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:17 pm

I thought about this issue since I first read it. One question asked is Two deep leadership needed? My answer to that is WHY even did the question come up. To protect our youth and us we always need to follow the rules of scouting even in real life. Anything can happen to adults and children that can be taken way out of context and if we follow the rules of scouting in our real lives then a whole lot of problems can be avoided. These times our world can be a scary place to be. But if we can teach our rules and have more people follow them then we can overcome a lot of problems.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby ThunderingWind » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:54 pm

What this issue needs is to have the National lawyers correct all the documentation and lay it at the feet of the Supreme Court and have a once-and-for-all blessing ceremony.

Then we would stop all the "I think,", "Here is how we do it," "we can't because" or "It doesn't say that in the book".....etc
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby evmori » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:37 am

Ed...I'm with you. AskAndy is not.


What does AskAndy say?
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:16 pm

evmori wrote:
Ed...I'm with you. AskAndy is not.


What does AskAndy say?


Here's the link to his Sep 10 column with the original question he was asked. There is follow on questions that you can read. If you would like to see the emails we traded on this send me an separate email.

http://netcommish.com/AskAndy186.asp

"Hi Andy,
We have a Scout in our troop who has scheduled his Eagle Scout Service Project for a Sunday morning. He says that he has a few volunteers who can be there at that time, but I don’t believe any of our troop’s leaders signed up to be there at that time, since this is a time when most of us are in church. The question was raised by our Committee Chair: Is two-deep leadership required? I don't think it’s been required on previous projects, but then maybe it just happens that two leaders happen to have been there. What do we do? (David Hinger, SM, Greater Alabama Council)

This is an Eagle project and the Eagle candidate is in charge; this isn't a "unit outing" or event. Therefore, no "tour permit" is filed and two-deep leadership doesn't apply."
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby FrankJ » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:17 pm

It is certainly not an "unit event". I do think it is an "scouting activity" so G2SS would apply.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:55 pm

I agree. In the Rip Van Winkle Council, we want to see 2 deep "supervision" (not always both are leaders) and the CE recommends it. But, as stated in the first thread of this forum item, even within the district/council others see it differently. National needs to cut out the ambiguity and set the record straight: all events in Scouting should have at least 2 adults on site.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby evmori » Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:07 am

Well Andy is wrong.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby mt_goodrich » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:26 am

Billiken wrote:Re two-deep, I'm sure I'm like the rest of the contributors to this community...

I never put myself in a Scouting situation where I'm the only adult.

Even in life I tend to follow this rule.


I always err on the side of caution and not only in Scout situations, but any situation where there are youth (that I am not related to).
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby FrankJ » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:06 pm

Bill Pitcher wrote:Snip. National needs to cut out the ambiguity and set the record straight: all events in Scouting should have at least 2 adults on site.


While not arguing the wisdom for two deep leadership, the only place National requires it in G2SS is back country camping. Patrol outings & meetings may not require any adults. MBC only needs one. Troop meetings only require one. The Sweet sixteen only requires one. All cases require no one on one contact between adult & youth.

Hopefully the leadership is using some situational awareness for what level of supervision any activity needs. The age and experience of the boys make a difference as well. You could have a patrol of 13 year olds or patrol of 17 year olds. They could be spreading pine straw or using power tools. It all makes a difference.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby smtroop168 » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:40 pm

FrankJ wrote:While not arguing the wisdom for two deep leadership, the only place National requires it in G2SS is back country camping.



????? This is from the G2SS and says "all trips or outings" not just back country camping

Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings
Two-deep leadership:
Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities, even those including parent and child, require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby FrankJ » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:07 pm

I stand corrected. :oops: I thought that was in the camping section. Teach me to check my facts rather than to trust to memory.

I not even going to argue the few other instances statement or rather or not a project is an troop outing.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby kwildman » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:47 am

The ESLP is an individual effort. It is neither a trip or an outing as presented in the G2SS. Is having adult supervision a good idea - yes. Is having two deep leadership available a good idea - yes. Are either of these required for an ESLP - NO.

There is a quite a bit of information on life to eagle, ELSP, G2SS, etc. If this was a requirement it would be noted in these documents. The work book would say list your plan for making sure that 2 deep leadership is met.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby smtroop168 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:07 am

kwildman wrote:The ESLP is an individual effort. It is neither a trip or an outing as presented in the G2SS. Is having adult supervision a good idea - yes. Is having two deep leadership available a good idea - yes. Are either of these required for an ESLP - NO.

There is a quite a bit of information on life to eagle, ELSP, G2SS, etc. If this was a requirement it would be noted in these documents. The work book would say list your plan for making sure that 2 deep leadership is met.


Maybe this is just semantics but the ESLP is far from an individual effort. Depending on what kind of project it is, he needs to coordinate with many different people and resources to pull this off. I would guess that most EP are held away from the scouts meeting place so I would say it certainly is a trip or outing. How does a scout get his workforce to the worksite without transportation? Of course if an EP is not a Scouting Event, then the transportation rules don't apply either. Throw them all in the back of a pickup and head on out to the trail! Parents who bring their sons (especially younger boys...scouts or not) to an EP and see no adult supervision are likely to turn around. I believe most sponsoring organizations expect adults to be onsite (not to run the project..but to provide assistance as required by the Eagle Candidate).

The issue is whether or not an EP is a Scouting Activity. If you are of the opinion that it is, then the G2SS should apply (supervision, permits etc). If you think an EP can be done without these elements, then you fall on AskAndy's side of the issue.

The question still at National is to clarify this.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby kwildman » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:51 pm

smtroop168 wrote:Maybe this is just semantics but the ESLP is far from an individual effort. Depending on what kind of project it is, he needs to coordinate with many different people and resources to pull this off. I would guess that most EP are held away from the scouts meeting place so I would say it certainly is a trip or outing. How does a scout get his workforce to the worksite without transportation? Of course if an EP is not a Scouting Event, then the transportation rules don't apply either. Throw them all in the back of a pickup and head on out to the trail! Parents who bring their sons (especially younger boys...scouts or not) to an EP and see no adult supervision are likely to turn around. I believe most sponsoring organizations expect adults to be onsite (not to run the project..but to provide assistance as required by the Eagle Candidate).

The issue is whether or not an EP is a Scouting Activity. If you are of the opinion that it is, then the G2SS should apply (supervision, permits etc). If you think an EP can be done without these elements, then you fall on AskAndy's side of the issue.

The question still at National is to clarify this.


The fact that the project is held away from a meeting place does not make it either a Trip or an Outing. If Johnny Scout is doing his project at the park or a church he just tells the scouts where to be at what time. He does not have to arrange transportation for everyone that helps. I have never seen a coordinated car pooling effort for a EP that i have been involved in.

Your argument about throwing them in the back of a pickup truck is illogical and doesnt have anything at all to do with the question. The same for your comment about parents - a parent can always decide they are uncomfortable with the way things are and decide to pull their kid. It is not Johnny Scouts responsiblitly to make mom and dads happy.
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