Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

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Two Deep Leadership during ESLSP?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:55 pm

I was a guest at an EBoR in another district of our council recently. As I was questioning the candidate as to why on two of his six or seven work days, there was only one adult for supervision, one of his committee members also on the EBoR said: "You don't need two adults on Eagle projects and patrol outings." Is this true or a common practice in other councils? Seems careless to me, especially in light of what was mentioned in another recent thread! Any expert out there? Our unit ALWAYS requires two adults, even on Star and Life service projects.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby evmori » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:25 am

How many Scouts were there?

Patrol outing do not require adults.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:09 am

I have an official request into National asking specifically about 2 deep leadership on Eagle Projects. My question to them is whether or not Eagle Projects are Scouting Activities and therefore fall under the Guide to Safe Scouting. The contention by Ask Andy is that Eagle Projects are not Unit Activities and therefore do not require 2 deep leadership and the G2SS does not apply since the G2SS is for Unit Activities. The G2SS sweet sixteen says that adult leadership is required for all Scouting activities.

Bill Evans has asked the BSA attorneys but I've not received a response yet.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby Cowboy » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:18 am

Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project. Scout is the key word. It is an activity organized and operated under the rules and regulations of the BSA. It is also outside of the BSA as it can not benefit BSA, but it is still operated under the regs of BSA. That means that it is under the two deep requirements. This is part of the problem with our society that we should be trying to correct and mitigate: The rules apply all of the time, not just when it is convenient. If there is a rule, follow it, do not try to find some type of loop hole to use to get out of following it.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby kwildman » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:29 am

In response to the original question. 2 deep leadership is a requirement for adult leaders. The scout has no control over that or that only one adult volunteered on a couple of days to help with the project. His job was to provide leadership on his project. I wouldn't have cancelled my project and I wouldn't have sent away someone willing to help. He was probably hoping that others would show up.

During an EBOR, I would not question a scout about rules that are for adult leaders. I would probably bring this up with the SM for not supporting his scout and making sure that there was two-deep supervision.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:06 am

Cowboy wrote:Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project. Scout is the key word. It is an activity organized and operated under the rules and regulations of the BSA. It is also outside of the BSA as it can not benefit BSA, but it is still operated under the regs of BSA. That means that it is under the two deep requirements. This is part of the problem with our society that we should be trying to correct and mitigate: The rules apply all of the time, not just when it is convenient. If there is a rule, follow it, do not try to find some type of loop hole to use to get out of following it.


I'm with you...AskAndy is not. The EP is not a unit activity.

kwildman wrote:In response to the original question. 2 deep leadership is a requirement for adult leaders. The scout has no control over that or that only one adult volunteered on a couple of days to help with the project. His job was to provide leadership on his project.


Don't think I agree here. If the scout's providing leadership on his project, it is his responsibility to ensure all required resources are available and onscene when he executes his project. (Unless you're of the opinion the G2SS doesn't apply and 2 adults aren't required).
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby Billiken » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:26 am

Re two-deep, I'm sure I'm like the rest of the contributors to this community...

I never put myself in a Scouting situation where I'm the only adult.

Even in life I tend to follow this rule.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby kwildman » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:02 pm

does the ESLSP require adults as resource?

Kids are not trained in youth protection. They are not trained in G2SS. I guess i am saying I wouldn't fault the kid at his BOR. I think the TRAINED adults in his unit let this kid down.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby FrankJ » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:06 pm

So you are saying, if the sweet sixteen is followed, the scout is not in charge of his Eagle project since the first requirement of the sweet sixteen is qualified adult supervision. Also the sweet sixteen does not require two deep leadership. Some Eagle project involve no other scouts or scouter than the eagle candidate. What to do about those? The two adult leaders are required for back country camping. YP requires no one on one contact which could be one adult & multiple youth. Merit badge counselors are a specific example of this.

So if the the scout had one adult among many youth, he met the youth protection & sweet sixteen requirement, providing the adult was acting as the supervisor.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby evmori » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:21 pm

An Eagle project is a BSA activity. And I think Frank J stated the 2 deep leadership thing very well.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby kwildman » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:41 pm

Agreed - I see this all the time that YP gets interpreted as "Two Deep" instead of "no one on one".

How often do you car pool to a scout event? Are there always 2 leaders in each car?
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby Bill Pitcher » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:08 pm

I agree with bits and pieces of all of your responses. I guess I'll wait for Bill Evan's response to smtroop168. However, regardless of "the sweet sixteen" and patrol outings not requiring adult leadership, lets all be safe and have two adults there on all "Scouting Activities" including EP's that do not involve scouts other than the Eagle candidate. If someone happens to get hurt, one adult stays with the group and the other goes with the injured person for help.?! UGH, that makes two - one adult situations doesn't it! When will this stop??!!??
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby ThunderingWind » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:54 pm

kwildman wrote:Agreed - I see this all the time that YP gets interpreted as "Two Deep" instead of "no one on one".

How often do you car pool to a scout event? Are there always 2 leaders in each car?

There is a thread on the Yahoo Groups about two deep in all vehicles. Some new DE brought back either very bad information from their national training session or they brought back new policy to be forth coming.

I know several insurance companies that cover churches that have Scouting units are pushing for this.

And when I first joined this forum, the unit I was with had as official church policy that the meeting started when I left my house (travel to any BSA function) and I (regisitered adult member) could not be one-on-one with my son because he was a youth member while traveling to and from meetings (any BSA function).

So this is not the first time this two deep in vehicles had come up. And I do not think it will go away. I see it as tactic being used by the enemy to help disrupt, discourage, and dismember the BSA.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:08 pm

There is nothing in the Eagle Project Workbook that requires the Scout to differentiate between who is an adult, and who is not, or to list the number of adults and youth present at any time/day of the project.

All it asks for is a list of names, the date worked, and how many hours the person worked that date.

None of the workers, adult or youth, even have to be BSA members, and the Scout only needs a minimum of 2 workers to show leadership of.

Since there is no way to know who is an adult, and who is not, to reject a Scouts project at the EBOR because not enough of the names listed each day sounded like they were adults is very wrong.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:23 pm

FrankJ wrote:So you are saying, if the sweet sixteen is followed, the scout is not in charge of his Eagle project since the first requirement of the sweet sixteen is qualified adult supervision.

Who said that?

Some Eagle project involve no other scouts or scouter than the eagle candidate.

This is sad. I had an EBOR where the scout chose not to include his troop because he didn't think they would do a good job. Scout was the Troop's SPL!!


The Sweet 16 of BSA Safety
These 16 safety points, which embody good judgment and common sense, are applicable to all activities:

1. Qualified Supervision.
Every BSA activity should be supervised by a conscientious adult who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children and youth in his or her care. The supervisor should be sufficiently trained, experienced, and skilled in the activity to be confident of his or her ability to lead and teach the necessary skills and to respond effectively in the event of an emergency. Field knowledge of all applicable BSA standards and a commitment to implement and follow BSA policy and procedures are essential parts of the supervisor's qualifications.


Say what you want about adding to the requirements but our Council will not approve an EP without a TP which requires two deep leadership. Our CE looked at me and smiled and said, "You're not the one who has to answer if something goes wrong". I think the EP sponsor would expect that there were going to be adults "supervising" on their property. I also don't believe the sponsor (for example, the App Trail) would want a bunch of 14-15 y/o out on the trail with axes and saws without adults. Also how are they going to get to the job site? We recommend the scout assign adults as his "Safety Team" and advise him as required. That way there is no question that he is leading the project.

The question I asked National is are EP scouting Activities? And if so, does the G2SS apply (TP, 2deep, etc). The contention was that EP are not unit activities and therefore no TP/2deep required.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby FrankJ » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:28 pm

Question like this on is what I like about this list. Regardless of your personal opinion, it good to think these things out before the question comes up in your own troop. In the eagle project application there is a section on safety. So the onus is actually on the scout to decide what level of supervision his project requires. I know that is one of the sections thorough review in our district. If your council or district requires two deep at all time & tour permits, it should be in the project proposal.

What requires a local TP is council decision so doubt national will get into that. If your Council requires it, you should do it. I will interested to hear how national responds the general question.

Please do not misconstrue what I am saying. Having two deep leadership at an eagle scout project is good idea. Just remember it is the scout running the project.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby evmori » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:32 am

An Eagle Project is not a unit activity nor does an Eagle Project have to include anyone from the Scout's unit. That said, all BSA rules & regs should be followed since an Eagle Project is a BSA activity.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:17 am

evmori wrote:An Eagle Project is not a unit activity (AGREE)

nor does an Eagle Project have to include anyone from the Scout's unit (AGREE).

That said, all BSA rules & regs should be followed since an Eagle Project is a BSA activity.(So you would say the G2SS applies?)
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:19 am

FrankJ wrote:Question like this on is what I like about this list. Regardless of your personal opinion, it good to think these things out before the question comes up in your own troop. In the eagle project application there is a section on safety. So the onus is actually on the scout to decide what level of supervision his project requires. I know that is one of the sections thorough review in our district. If your council or district requires two deep at all time & tour permits, it should be in the project proposal.

What requires a local TP is council decision so doubt national will get into that. If your Council requires it, you should do it. I will interested to hear how national responds the general question.

Please do not misconstrue what I am saying. Having two deep leadership at an eagle scout project is good idea. Just remember it is the scout running the project.


Agree.
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Re: Two Deep Leadership: When?

Postby evmori » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:28 pm

smtroop168 wrote:
evmori wrote:An Eagle Project is not a unit activity (AGREE)

nor does an Eagle Project have to include anyone from the Scout's unit (AGREE).

That said, all BSA rules & regs should be followed since an Eagle Project is a BSA activity.(So you would say the G2SS applies?) Yes it does.
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