Patrol Activities

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Patrol Activities

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:40 pm

Son #2 wants his patrol to meet him for bowling. Notice: MEET him, not transport them. It's a patrol activity. His understanding is that no supervision is required because it's a patrol activity, restricted to his patrol (and SPL/ASPL) only. The Council Director of Field Services says that not having adult supervision usually is intended for patrol related activities that are branched off troop functions such as a patrol having a meeting at a camp out without an adult, or taking a hike using the troop's campsite as a base. I've not heard that interpretation before. Does anyone know where to find documentation supporting/refuting that?

His mother will be driving him (Committee Member) and his best friend coming (18 y.o. ASM). Does that fulfill 2-deep leadership, or does the over-21 adult need to be SM/ASM?

-- I'm just about frustrated enough to suggest that he simply invite the boys as a non-Scout-related outing *sigh*
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby Quailman » Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:58 pm

scouting.org wrote:Patrol Activities
Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols may also conduct day hikes and service projects independent of the troop, as long as they follow two rules:

■The Scoutmaster approves the activity.
■The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function.


It doesn't say leaders are required to attend.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:03 pm

Quailman wrote:
scouting.org wrote:Patrol Activities
Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols may also conduct day hikes and service projects independent of the troop, as long as they follow two rules:

■The Scoutmaster approves the activity.
■The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function.


It doesn't say leaders are required to attend.


So, only day hikes and service projects?
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby FrankJ » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:04 pm

G2SS requires a registered member (committee member works) & one over 21 (not necessarily the same one), so you are covered as far as adult leadership is concerned.

Typical of G2SS, it does not really say what type of patrol activity requires adult supervision & what does not. So I would say it is up to troop leadership to decide.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby joat » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:55 pm

AquilaNegra2 wrote: I've not heard that interpretation before. Does anyone know where to find documentation supporting/refuting that?
YOU don't have to refute anything. He who verbally states "policy" must provide the reference in the pubs if he expects anyone to go along.

Refer to page 20 of the Boy Scout Handbook, and chapter 4 of the Scoutmaster Handbook. The policy is crystal clear.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby alex gregory » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:31 am

From G2SS:
Two-deep leadership.
Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

How does the rule not apply to a patrol outing? Of course you need 2-deep leadership, and it sounds like you are covered. More importantly, it's a good rule.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby FrankJ » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:00 pm

The whole 2 deep leadership thing from G2SS

Two-deep leadership:
Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities, even those including parent and child, require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.


So the real question is do you need adult leadership at all for a particular patrol activity. Unless you council has issued something specific, it is up to the the troop leadership.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby joat » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:10 pm

alex gregory wrote:From G2SS: Two-deep leadership... How does the rule not apply to a patrol outing? Of course you need 2-deep leadership, and it sounds like you are covered.
Since adult leaders are not required on a patrol activity, two-deep adult leadership cannot be required. The second adult leader in "2-deep" is to help prevent the first adult from getting involved in child abuse, or to help protect him from false accusations of same. No adults, no need for "2-deep".

Quoting from chapter 4 of the Scoutmaster Handbook, "patrols may also set out on day hikes, service projects, and overnighter independent of the troop and free of adult leadership".
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby FrankJ » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:33 pm

You have to use a little common sense and a little training here. Back country camping requires minimum of 4 including adult leadership (G2SS). Anything that requires a tour permit (Permits require an in charge adult.). Anything involving water or climbing. (SSD & COS). Will all require adult leadership. Patrol meetings at some ones home probably would not. Other activities require some judgment.

Now back to the original question. Bowling, to me, would depend on the patrol involved which is a local question.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby biglou » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:37 pm

I know information concerning this particular topic is in the Scoutmaster Handbook. Not sure of what page. I can't quote it verbatim. Sorry. Check that out for the correct information.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:39 pm

Thanks, all. SM has said they must file tour permit, invite leadership, etc. I think we will just stick to merit badge activities from now on, or do it outside of Scouting. It is just too big a hassle when all they want to do is meet somewhere and bowl.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby FrankJ » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:08 am

You do need to stick to what the SM sez, but you wonder why they leave.

On the other hand. He can invite his friends to go bowling & skip calling it a patrol activity.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:15 pm

Yep, Frank; I really like our SM and will do what he says, even if I disagree. It's a shame, though. I'm fairly certain if he's doing it as a non-Scout activity, the annoying kid from his patrol won't be invited. Too bad, because as an adult I can see that AnnoyingBoy would benefit from the fellowship of more socially adept boys.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby alex gregory » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:32 pm

AquilaNegra2 wrote:Thanks, all. SM has said they must file tour permit, invite leadership, etc. I think we will just stick to merit badge activities from now on, or do it outside of Scouting. It is just too big a hassle when all they want to do is meet somewhere and bowl.


If all they want to do is meet somewhere and bowl, then they should do it. Just because you go bowling with your buddies from Scouts does not make it a scOUTING. But if you are going to put the stamp of BSA on an activity I think it makes sense to do it by the book - it's not really that hard and the rules make a lot of sense. Yes, there are patrol activities that do not have to comply with G2SS, but once you start down that slippery slope it's awfully hard to stop and you develop bad habits.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:12 pm

It wasn't about not complying, Alex. As I read it, a patrol activity without transportation doesn't require the leadership to be involved (other than approval) or a tour permit. I am a "rules" person. #2 is working toward having his patrol become an honor patrol. This was to be one of the required meetings. The patrols recently changed, and his intention was to have the boys bond. Instead, their two required meetings a month are just going to be patrol corners.

No matter. He applied for the permit, gathered the required leadership, and is all set to go. It was simply a big hassle, and they'll be doing it out of Scouting in the future. It's just a shame when "all the good stuff" happens OUTSIDE of the boundaries of Scouting due to paperwork.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:57 pm

Maybe the boys who need to, can also invite their friends who are not in scouts for 1st class req #11.
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby Fibonacci » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:05 pm

AquilaNegra2 ~ when I called the Chief Seattle office, I was told that activities that occur in the city where the troop holds regular troop meetings do not need a Tour Permit. So IF the bowling alley is in the city where the boys meet, the activity wouldn't need a TP.

Kudos to your son for jumping thru all the hoops!
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:38 pm

It's only 4 miles away, but not the same city. Thanks for checking, though!
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Re: Patrol Activities

Postby joat » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:32 pm

AquilaNegra2 wrote:It was simply a big hassle, and they'll be doing it out of Scouting in the future. It's just a shame when "all the good stuff" happens OUTSIDE of the boundaries of Scouting due to paperwork.
There's no reason for it to be a hassle. The SM just needs to tell the troop committee activities person to file a tour permit; that's what they're there for. It's no more hassle that if the entire troop was going bowling. Of course if the SM is throwing up roadblocks, that's a different issue altogether, not a Scouting hassle.
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