Adancement Chairman issues

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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby jr56 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:01 pm

I love the 3 ring binder idea. Put's the responsibility where it belongs, with the boy.
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby evmori » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:11 pm

WVBeaver05 wrote:
AquilaNegra2 wrote:Our SM's policy is that work must be completed after he has signed the blue card (excepting camping).


Interesting. Isn't this the MBC decision, not the SM?

YiS


Yup the MBC is the person who matters, not the SM, unless they are one in the same person!
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:15 pm

Hope not, that makes it even scarier.
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:22 pm

smtroop168 wrote:Here we go again. Another SM who doesn't follow the procedures and keeps scouts from advancing. He's either ignorant or evil. Maybe Aquila can educate him with info from these postings.

Hopefully he's not related to the AC situation that started this post who's jamming stuff into Troopmaster.


Ah. Remember, our SM is the one who says the handbook is a "guidebook" rather than a "rule book". *sigh*
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby evmori » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:45 am

AquilaNegra2 wrote:
smtroop168 wrote:Here we go again. Another SM who doesn't follow the procedures and keeps scouts from advancing. He's either ignorant or evil. Maybe Aquila can educate him with info from these postings.

Hopefully he's not related to the AC situation that started this post who's jamming stuff into Troopmaster.


Ah. Remember, our SM is the one who says the handbook is a "guidebook" rather than a "rule book". *sigh*


You need a new Scoutmaster!
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby Cowboy » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:16 am

Let the flames begin:
Our Troop does require a "Blue Card". Nope they are not a BSA requirement, but our advancement ladies need to know that the MB is legit. I still fail to see how anyone can do an actual verification that the MB's have been earned without "proof". I have stood and watched a boy present a Blue card to the SM claiming to have finished the MB (Woodworking) the previous week. When asked who the counselor was (signature unreadable) he couldn't remember his name. When asked what he did for the "project" he couldn't remember. When asked by me what a brace was , he could not tell me. Our Advancement Chair (at that time) still recorded and awarded the MB. Our AC's (two new ones work as a team) do not accept a Blue Card or claim of earning a MB unless they can read the signature on the card, or have spoken to the counselor personally. It is such a simple thing to fill out the cards. BSA should require them. If for no other reason than to prepare the boys for real life. I have to have a drivers license to prove that I have earned my driving privileges, I have to carry my inspectors license to prove that I have passed my exams and am certified to inspect buildings, I have to carry proof of insurance to prove that I have some. Why not train the boys to be responsible for proof in the real world?
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby smtroop168 » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:08 pm

Actually although a "Blue Card" is not technically required, an Application for Merit Badge is. It is referenced in the #33088.

Under your scenario, the unit should know who the MB counselor is since the SM gave him a name of a Woodwork Counselor from your approved District/Council list. Since you are using Blue Cards, the back of the 1st part has the name/address/phone number of the MBC.

Nothing wrong with your AC following up with the MBC as a "How did it go?" conversation. Can mention hard to read signature if you want.

Nothing wrong with you/SM/AC sitting the scout down as well as ensuring they understand the MB process. However, even if the scout is clueless, if the MBC is an approved counselor, the AC has no other alternative than to record the MB in the scout's records.
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby FrankJ » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:16 pm

I am not sure why you want flames.

If the advancement chair cannot identify the MBC how can you tell if the MBC is registered for the merit badge? That is the only thing that can get a merit badge taken away once it is awarded. That is kinda a DUH.

On the other hand I do know of a scout how claimed to have earned the ice skating merit badge.
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby Mrw » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:46 pm

I just had this same conversation last week with a couple of our counselors.

In the first case, the boy brought in a completed and signed blue card for first aid that he really doesn't know very well. The agreement I reached with the counseolr who does this within the troop is that we award the badge, but also continue to work with the boy as he teaches others so that he will learn it better. (The signed card came from a Red Cross class with a registered counselor from another council.) If he or his mom question why he should continue to be in the first aid sessions with the rest of the younger boys, we will emphasize that you can never have too much practice.

The second case revolved around two boys who had started Personal Fitness at a merit badge midway. They came to see the guy in the troop that counsels this for some additional help with worksheets they had started then. (All we have are the initials of this first counselor and it is not someone we know or have on our new active counselor list.) They had two requirements crossed off on the worksheet that they had been told they did not have to do. Our counselor told them that he did expect it to be done and that the previous counselor did not have the authority to change them. He called me after to make sure he had done the right thing.

As it has worked out, there is no question from anyone involved about this being the right thing in both cases.
Last edited by Mrw on Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby jr56 » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:41 pm

I just found out that my disctrict/council has no list of approved merit badge counselors. The troop I work with is handling this on their own so to speak.
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby FrankJ » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:15 pm

I just found out that my disctrict/council has no list of approved merit badge counselors. The troop I work with is handling this on their own so to speak.


Send in the Merit Badge Police!!!! :lol:
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby alex gregory » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:27 pm

Why the controversy?

BSA does not require Blue Cards for BSA admin purposes, that does not mean that the troop does not need a Blue Card or some other suitable form of documentation. Of course the AC has to document each scout's individual advancement. BSA policy is that troop leadership is trustworthy in reporting each scout's advancement. As AC I give each scout the full benefit of my trust that he has completed a merit badge when he tells me he has completed a merit badge, and all I ask is signed blue card from a registered MBC. If I smell a rat then I verify (has only happened once a we have asked Junior's Mom to no longer counsel her own son).

The bigger problem is MBCs who let guys skate through the requirements. That's not the scout's fault, that's the fault of a leader, parent etc. that is enabling a scout to get recognition that has not been earned.
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:02 pm

I have seen a Merit Badge Sheet from I think Central region. It is similar to the advancement report that goes to council but is just for merit badges
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby evmori » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:23 am

smtroop168 wrote:Actually although a "Blue Card" is not technically required, an Application for Merit Badge is. It is referenced in the #33088.

Under your scenario, the unit should know who the MB counselor is since the SM gave him a name of a Woodwork Counselor from your approved District/Council list. Since you are using Blue Cards, the back of the 1st part has the name/address/phone number of the MBC.

Nothing wrong with your AC following up with the MBC as a "How did it go?" conversation. Can mention hard to read signature if you want.

Nothing wrong with you/SM/AC sitting the scout down as well as ensuring they understand the MB process. However, even if the scout is clueless, if the MBC is an approved counselor, the AC has no other alternative than to record the MB in the scout's records.


Once the counselor has signed off the MB is complete, it's a done deal. Ya might not want to use this counselor again but then again, it could be the Scout was totally uninterested!
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:10 pm

I've also seen the Jamboree "Yellow Sheet".


alex gregory wrote:The bigger problem is MBCs who let guys skate through the requirements.


Agree but the scout needs to take some responsibility as well.
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby evmori » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:19 am

smtroop168 wrote:I've also seen the Jamboree "Yellow Sheet".


alex gregory wrote:The bigger problem is MBCs who let guys skate through the requirements.


Agree but the scout needs to take some responsibility as well.


Yes the Scout needs to take some responsibility but I doubt if the Scout thinks about it. The best thing to do is keep a list of those counselors who let Scouts skate on MB requirements so as not to use them in the future. This list can also be sent to your DAC.
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:27 am

evmori wrote:The best thing to do is keep a list of those counselors who let Scouts skate on MB requirements so as not to use them in the future. This list can also be sent to your DAC.


Absolutely...the MBCs do not have to be renewed by the Council.
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby WVBeaver05 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:25 pm

smtroop168 wrote:
evmori wrote:The best thing to do is keep a list of those counselors who let Scouts skate on MB requirements so as not to use them in the future. This list can also be sent to your DAC.


Absolutely...the MBCs do not have to be renewed by the Council.

Exactly so!! While we cannot reject an approved MB Counselors approval - we can, and absolutely should, correct the problem. I would like to think that it is really the fault of the folks that accepted the counselor for not correctly explaining the process or training the MBC. That would mean, go back and retrain before removing them. (But I have mixed feelings about that, as they would Counsel another group before you know.)

YiS
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby Cowboy » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:45 pm

Note also that it is the general consensus of this board that NO ONE can dictate who a Scout uses. The SM can recommend, but can not dictate. This means that unless you can substantiate shoddy counseling he/she probably will not be removed very quickly. How do you substantiate? Ask the Scout if they really earned the MB? If they were going to be honest about that they would not have accepted the MB to begin with. Ask the MB Counselor? If he is not doing the job right, he is not going to say :"Yep remove me becase I am letting things slide."
Regarding verifiable signatures: A MB that is dated 4 years ago. Inadequate or nonexistant MBC records from that time at council. How would you know if it was a legit counselor? Just playing devils advocate.
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Re: Adancement Chairman issues

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:19 pm

Cowboy wrote:Note also that it is the general consensus of this board that NO ONE can dictate who a Scout uses. The SM can recommend, but can not dictate. This means that unless you can substantiate shoddy counseling he/she probably will not be removed very quickly. How do you substantiate? Ask the Scout if they really earned the MB? If they were going to be honest about that they would not have accepted the MB to begin with. Ask the MB Counselor? If he is not doing the job right, he is not going to say :"Yep remove me becase I am letting things slide."
Regarding verifiable signatures: A MB that is dated 4 years ago. Inadequate or nonexistant MBC records from that time at council. How would you know if it was a legit counselor? Just playing devils advocate.


The "Advancement Requirements Book" says the SM will provide THE name of a MBC. I believe most SMs provide a list of names and probably steer the scout to one he knows is a good counselor. The SM can't know everyone especially if its an oddball MB. I think that a lot of troops try to have all the required MBs covered within the troop. The THE counselor approach of course can't work at Summer Camps or Merit Badge Colleges.

As far as poor counselors, word of mouth usually catches up with them. Also if you are verifying your list every year, you can do some QA checks as well to re-validate their qualifications.

Under your 4 yr old MB and lousy council recordskeeping, you really don't have a way to verify the counselor other than you have to assume correctness until other wise proven. There is something about that I heard about in the Scout Law.
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