Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

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Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby ThunderingWind » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:31 pm

FieldSports wrote:Insignia Guide:
Protection of Uniforms

Clause 4. Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation.
a.No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local council or any local executive board or committee, except the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America after consideration by the Program Group Committee.
b.Imitation of United States Army, Navy, or Marine Corps uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of the organization's Congressional Charter.

Hence, the no "camo" regulations that most people cite. (without knowing that this is the source) :|

As far as the orginal question:
Official Uniforms

Clause 2. The official uniforms authorized as evidence of official relationship to the Boy Scouts of America shall be those approved by action of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America from time to time, as illustrated and correctly described in the handbooks, catalogs, and other official publications of the Boy Scouts of America.

So, a few questions..........
Does this then allow usage of clothing that is NO LONGER an official uniform of the three branches of service noted above?

And next tangent......How do we announce to the public that the Centennial Uniforms DOES NOT MEAN we converted the boys to Junior USMC ROTC at the local schools? I still get asked.
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby FrankJ » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:12 pm

It means the official uniform is what national says it is. Troops, Councils cannot alter it. Be it blue jeans, cammo, REI pants. what ever.

A separate rule says you cannot dress up in imitation of the armed forces. So if you elect not to wear the scout uniform (allowed), you cannot wear a military uniform. Some people have stretched this to mean no camouflage. The same stretch should apply to white, khaki, blue jeans & green.

So can you wear old pieces of uniform or other clothing that has a resemblance to military garb? You need to use common sense. If you dress up to a point that you look like a soldier--you gone too far.
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby ThunderingWind » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:07 am

FrankJ wrote:You need to use common sense.
The lawyers have taken this option away from us - so what do we do now?

FrankJ wrote:If you dress up to a point that you look like a soldier--you gone too far.
This is why I asked about the Centennial Uniform. It looks too much like the USMC Class B Tan and Green. Too many people keep asking and the local Central and South American American immigrant population will not let their boys join because it looks too much like a Juanta uniform that they ahve worked so hard from which to flee.

When we show them the uniform of old (with all the red) they are OK with it.
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby tonkatim » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:19 am

We used to call our old uniforms the "Green Beans" and could not wait until we were allowed to wear the dark green shirt for our "Leadership Patrol."

Now let me start this arguement... It is a boys uniform. You do not look cool in it. The minute you think that the uniform makes you look good, you should step back and rethink your commitment. You should wear it in its entirety to show your boys that you support them and the Scouting system. That is all.

Camo... really?
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby cdwscout » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:32 am

People can be "imitating" hunters, not military, when wearing camo. Personally, I like camo for activity shirts.

Question: Is imitation of Air Force/Coast Guard allowed?
Yours in scOUTING,
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby FrankJ » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:49 am

Question: Is imitation of Air Force/Coast Guard allowed?


Short answer. NO. Air force was part of the army until sometime around WWII.

Exception: Sea Scout uniform it based on Coast Guard or Navy, I forget which. But that is how national defined with the armed services so that is a different discussion.
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby razor_strop » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:57 am

Does someone want to tell those troops that elect to wear black, green, tan, maroon, grey or dark blue berets they're imitating the military and will be barred from participating in district, council or national events? :lol:
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby tonkatim » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:12 pm

I think that I read somewhere that they are no longer required to wear a beret in the military.

Wear camo as much as you would like in your other jaunts. If the circumstances are for you to be in uniform... be in UNIFORM. Can you really ask your Scout to be in uniform when you are wearing a Uniform shirt and bluejeans because they make your backside look better? Or Camo because you want to blend in???

No one has ever accused me of being subtle. But some of you miss my points with great regularity. :lol:
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby ThunderingWind » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:07 pm

tonkatim wrote:Now let me start this arguement... It is a boys uniform. You do not look cool in it. The minute you think that the uniform makes you look good, you should step back and rethink your commitment. You should wear it in its entirety to show your boys that you support them and the Scouting system. That is all.
I wear it. I do have trouble telling parents that are one food stamps, getting rent support and medicaide that they need to figure out how to spend $150 on a full uniform for junior to wear.

tonkatim wrote:Camo... really?
The cold weather pants I prefer to wear for Winter Camping are not BSA. The BSA does not make Winter Camping pants. I have two options that work for me: RealTree pants with light long johns or my "now surplus" green Army CW pants with liner, suspenders and same light base layer long johns. I also prefer my surplus Army Mickey Mouse boots because they fit into the bindings of my moutain touring skis and snow shoes. None of the regular winter hiking boots do that.

When I was stationed at Fort Leonard Wood, parents would send their boys to woods with the $1 pair of surplus woodland camo BDU pants instead of the "required" BSA pants that cost $45. Did not care if they got dirty or ripped.

I think "we" need to take into account the ecomonics of not using surplus clothing items available to the consumer.

And the next thing for camo it fits the LNT requirements of blending in and not standing out with the garrish colors most vendors put into their tents and backpacks.
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby razor_strop » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:49 pm

ThunderingWind wrote: I have two options that work for me: RealTree pants with light long johns or my "now surplus" green Army CW pants with liner, suspenders and same light base layer long johns.


My son wears my old OD CW trousers when camping in temperate weather, along with most of my boot varieties and my old OD boonie when the troop goes camping. Too bad most of the surplus CW trousers available now are camo--OD isn't quite as obvious. Living in a town with 5 active installations, there are plenty of both active and retired military families in the troops, so if Sammy Scout can wear dad's surplus camo foul/cold weather gear that cost nothing vs. going out and buying comparable commercial gear, then there's gonna be a smorgashboard of camo gathered around the campfire.

TonkaTim, as far as the Army is concerned, soldiers are no longer required to wear the beret for normal duty when wearing ACUs (fatigues), but its still mandatory with the ASU (dark blue coat over royal blue pants), or when commanders require its wear. USAF security forces wear the dark blue beret when on duty in garrison, and PJs/CCTs/combat weather/SERE instructors wear their berets when in dress uniform.
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby tonkatim » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:36 pm

Wearing cold weather gear that happens to be camo at a winter campout, is not the issue. Standing on the parade ground at summer camp wearing matching camo pants as a unit is what is at issue.

Recruiting at two urban public school makes me very aware of the high expense of properly uniforming my Cubs. If they don't have one we find a way to get them one. If they have one we expect them to wear it. If they do not wear it, I don't show disappointment. But my expectations never drop. I can guarantee that they expect me to wear mine.

The blue jeans issue is a personal pet peeve of mine.
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby FrankJ » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:44 pm

Standing on the parade ground at summer camp wearing matching camo pants as a unit is what is at issue.


Would you be upset if they wore matching jeans, random bathing suits, or REI Pants? Would you tell them they could not do that? They are all equally out of uniform.

The real question is would a reasonable person mistake them as being members of the arm forces just by looking at them? If the answer is no then they are not violating the rule. If the answer is yes, is it because of the shirt or the pants?
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby kwildman » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:30 pm

i would have a problem with a unit requiring youth to wear camo pants as part of their uniform mostly due to the added expense.

However, i have a problem with the self appointed uniform police that give kids grief over proper uniforms (especially when it is not their unit). I once had an issue with another units leader giving one of my boys a lecture because he had kakhi shorts with his uniform shirt on for a Class A event. He made the kid feel bad and want to leave an event. I almost lost it on this guy.
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby FrankJ » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:06 pm

I could go with if you are going to require a uniform, it should be the official uniform. I believe non health/safety issues should generally be taken up with troop leadership rather than individual scouts.

Things like nonstandard uniform on the parade field should be addressed by camp leadership rather than self appointed enforcers.

However, i have a problem with the self appointed uniform police that give kids grief over proper uniforms


Now we are back to where this thread started!!!
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby tonkatim » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:08 pm

Now I am a uniform policeman? I only stated that my expectation never dropped. I do not make them feel bad if they are out of uniform. I do not say anything to them. I go over the next outings agenda, I go over the directions to the event, I go over questions about the event and I go over what to wear to the event. You can go on ebay and buy lots of uniforms and very reasonably priced.

I have one boy who has stapled all of his badges on his uniform and I could not be prouder. He's 9.

I guess I would be confused if I saw your Troop and they wore matching Bluejeans. I would wonder what point their leadership was trying to make. I would not say anything.

My point is, it is a boys uniform. As an adult leader you cannot make it look cool. Because it is a boys uniform. I wear mine because it shows to my boys that I am committed to them.

Join the KoC or the Masons and wear flashy swords if that is what you want.
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby FrankJ » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:30 pm

Sorry if I implied you were the uniform police. Was not my intention.

I am a form follows function sort of person. You want to make the uniform look cool? Wear the uniform while doing really cool stuff.
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby RWSmith » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:55 pm

tonkatim wrote:Join the KoC or the Masons and wear flashy swords if that is what you want.

There thousands of Scouters (myself included) who are also members of one, or even possibly both, of the above organizations, but...

I dare say, certainly not for the [pejorative] reason you referenced. I wear my fraternal regalia for the exact same reasons that I wear my Scout uniform.
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby WeeWillie » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:29 pm

From the United States Code

10 USC Sec. 771 01/07/2011

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES
Subtitle A - General Military Law
PART II - PERSONNEL
CHAPTER 45 - THE UNIFORM

-HEAD-
Sec. 771. Unauthorized wearing prohibited

-STATUTE-
Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of
the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may
wear -
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the
Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive
part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine
Corps.

I am a retired soldier. I, like many other active and retired soldiers, resent seeing the Army uniform being worn incompletely and incorrectly. I realize that inappropriate wearing the Army uniform is common place, but that doesn't make it right!!
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby ThunderingWind » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:13 pm

WeeWillie wrote:I am a retired soldier. I, like many other active and retired soldiers, resent seeing the Army uniform being worn incompletely and incorrectly. I realize that inappropriate wearing the Army uniform is common place, but that doesn't make it right!!
Are you bothered by the use of items that are no longer considered the official uniform of the Armed Services?
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Re: Camo (extension) carried out of the Footwear Thread

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:37 pm

Glad to see that it's the "imitation" of the uniform, not the wearing of woodland camos. What is the intent? It is for Scouts not to be a JROTC unit, or *mistaken* for one. It doesn't mean that the "black hats" can't wear their black berets (a troop here that is largely military families and certainly conducts themselves like a military unit.) It doesn't mean that kids can't wear their dad's military-issue boots. And, until I see it spelled out, it doesn't mean they can wear camo pants. :twisted:

ETA: We have a full-uniform troop next to us (full as in down to the socks). It's growing by leaps and bounds. BUT, they provide the uniform for boys who cannot afford it. I do think that most uniform issues come down to economics.
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