When is enough, enough?

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When is enough, enough?

Postby Ridge Runner » Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:41 am

We've all seen those Scouters adorn with gobs of Square Knots, and a gazillion other patches on their Class A's looking like Russian Generals. And it makes me wonder why all the excess....

So, even though the question is subjective, when is enough, enough? For myself, I just wear the Council Strip, Eagle Square knot, the NCS Staff patch, a name tag and sometimes when I can find them, my Wood Badge Beads. That for me, is enough.....
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Postby lifescoutforlife » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:13 am

My feeling is that they have put a good share of there life into scouting to be able to wear all of them and should be proud of wearing every one of them. We have 2 scouter's in our council that I know of that have about 10 or so knots and have put over 50 years into scouting and I respect both of them very highly for what they have done and are still doing for scouting.
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Postby ronin718 » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:29 am

The same argument is thrown around in the military regarding the number of ribbons/medals that are being created. With all the different things happening in the world, many in today's military are coming out after four years with more ribbons on their chest than Manuel Noriega. The thing about all this "fruit salad" is a knowledgeable individual could quickly decipher the career of these folks.

The same can be said for these senior "knot-heads". When you look at the number of knots on their shirts, you can see a long and varied career of service. Don't begrudge them their knots, take advantage of their experience.

It's an individual choice. Me, I wear my knots but not my stars. The knots don't really give the whole picture, just a sampling. That's just how it is.
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Postby OldGreyBear » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:39 am

Ridge Runner, you make my brain hurt. In one section you have a thread proposing having a different knot for serving on staff at Summer Camp in various areas and here you appear to be slamming people who wear knots. So, if I earn the CIT, Water Front, Scout Craft and High Adventure knots that you propose, you would think that wearing them on my uniform is too much?

A scouts/scouters uniform tells much about him. what he did as a youth, (Eagle and Religious knots) it tells about what they have as adults (Cub Leader Knots, Boy Scout Leader Knots, Venturer Advisor Knots, at the Committee level (Disitrict Award of Merit( and Council (Silver Beaver) and beyond. Rather than denigrate those who wear knots, why not find out who these people are, where are they from and what they did. If they are in the business just to wear knots, you will find out soon enough, but usually you will find one passionate person who can really give your scouting morale a lift, I know iy does mine
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Postby Ridge Runner » Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:11 pm

I can be a conumdrum at times... :D

I've no problem with awards for scouts, nor even scouters being worn that are within reason. Again, a subjective judgement call. But, when I see patches on an adult uniform other then the square knots, such as a half dozen QU awards, a Wood Badge patrol patch, interperters patches for Canadian, and Southern, every hiking/camping award possible in the local area, the Philmont Bull, an Over Trained patch, two or three Jambo patches, and now and then a Historical Trail, or 50 miler on that uniform, then wearing the Jac Shirt (with another Philmont Bull) over that with even more patches, I tend to think that scouter is having an idenity problem with self esteem.

None the less, I still think any scout showing up at an Eagle BOR wearing the purposed Summer Camp Staff square knot would speak volumes about his leadership skills, and ability to handle responsibilities.....the reason (since I agree with many of BP's concepts for scouting) I'd rather for the boy to shine with his achievments on his uniform, then for me to be the Peacock.....
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Postby OldGreyBear » Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:43 pm

Thank you and I agree with your sentiments.... now
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Postby joat » Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:23 pm

I suppose people display knots, patches, medals, and whatnot for same reasons others list their accomplishments, favorite quote, or Bible verse at the bottom of their post. It's a personal thing, and shouldn't be frowned upon by those that choose to skip it.
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Postby jr56 » Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:44 pm

As has been well stated previously, it's an individual thing. Some scouters prefer the "wood badge uniform" look, others wear their accomplishments with pride. I don't begrudge either type of leader, I'm just glad to see them showing up in uniform and helping support the greatest youth movement in the world (my own personal opinion).
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Re: When is enough, enough?

Postby optimist » Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:32 pm

Ridge Runner wrote:So, even though the question is subjective, when is enough, enough?


The question is not subjective. Scouting has uniform rules and they must be abided by. I do not believe there is a numerical limit on knots but there is only a certain number of knots so it limits itself. I have no problem with a Scouter wearing every knot they ever earned.

On the other hand, I often see multiple patches at the "temporary" patch location (sewn on covered by hanging covered by another hanging, etc). There is only supposed to be one. To the best of my knowledge, flap patches can only be worn on the right but I sometimes see some on the left as well. I see patches above the right pocket that don't belong. I see things worn off the epaulet loops. I see pins worn on the collars.

I am not the patch police and do not mention people's excesses unless they are good friends and then only in passing. This doesn't mean I don't notice and that others don't notice.
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Postby Hubert » Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:52 pm

Comming from someone who went to Jambo in '05, I thought you could only wear one patch in that place? And that you can only wear one QU at a time? Once the year is over, its removed. I thought that was the way anyway....Ive been wrong before...lol.


Also: I like seeing a lot of knots, that way I know who I can go to if I have any questions, that shows experence and dedication. I know that they will take me seriously because chances are, thay asked once too.
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Postby Mrw » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:08 pm

Hubert wrote:Comming from someone who went to Jambo in '05, I thought you could only wear one patch in that place? And that you can only wear one QU at a time? Once the year is over, its removed. I thought that was the way anyway....Ive been wrong before...

No, you are quite right. There should only be one temporary patch at a time and only the most recent QU award should be worn.
Last edited by RWSmith on Sun May 23, 2010 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed php mark-up error
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Postby scoutaholic » Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:06 am

Ridge Runner wrote:...when I see patches on an adult uniform other then the square knots, such as a half dozen QU awards, a Wood Badge patrol patch, interpreters patches for Canadian, and Southern, every hiking/camping award possible in the local area, the Philmont Bull, an Over Trained patch, two or three Jambo patches, and now and then a Historical Trail, or 50 miler on that uniform, then wearing the Jac Shirt (with another Philmont Bull) over that with even more patches, I tend to think that scouter is having an idenity problem with self esteem....


I don't know about a self-esteem problem, but the scouter you described has a uniform and insignia problem. He should only wear the most recent QU. Canadian and Southern interpreter strips are spoof patches, and not authorized for wear on the official uniform. The WB Patrol patch is not correctly worn outside of WB (although our council is coming out with a WB CSP that has a hole through it where you can wear the patrol patch officially). Adult leaders are not part of a patrol. Over-Trained is another spoof patch not authorized for official wear. Only one Jambo patch should be worn at a time, and only one 'temporary insignia' on the right pocket.

I personally wear several square-knots. Most of the time I don't wear all the device pins, service stars, etc. They are just inconvenient to put on and take off all the time. I only tend to put them on for formal occasions. I like to wear them, mostly so that the boys see that I also have things I am working on and earning. I want them to know that I still value the advancement program.

I will confess to wearing some 'unofficial' square-knots. They are for things that probably should have an official square-knot, and I don't think they detract from the dignity of the uniform or other insignia. They represent real accomplishment just like any other knot.

I have, but have never worn, a couple of spoof interpreter strips and trained patches. I think they are funny, but not appropriate for the uniform. Those types of spoof patches detract from the dignity of the uniform and it's official insignia. A patch that makes light of official insignia devalues and detracts from the meaning of the official patches. In turn, it detracts from the meaning and dignity of all the other patches and the whole program. If you can wear the 'klingon' or 'southern drawl' interpreter strip, the 'potty trained' strip, and the 'Citizenship in the Universe' or 'Outhouse Tipping' merit badge, then I can't expect much respect for the other insignia that you may or may not be wearing.
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Postby Billiken » Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:31 pm

I thought I read in the BSA Insignia Guide where a Scouter was limited to wearting 9 knots (3 rows of 3).

INCORRECT: No limit on number of rows.
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I've got no problem with insignia, so long as it's in accordance with BSA rules/regs.

The guy at 7Ranges last year with the Eagle medal on his hat WAS NOT in accordance with BSA Uniform Guidelines:

http://www.meritbadge.net/phpbb/viewtop ... hlight=hat
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Postby WVBeaver05 » Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:50 pm

Billiken wrote:I thought I read in the BSA Insignia Guide where a Scouter was limited to wearting 9 knots (3 rows of 3).


Someone that I talked to who had read a fairly recent BSA Insignia Guide advised me that had been removed and replaced with something about not being overdone or something. I don't have a copy and can't say for sure.

As previously mentioned, there are certainly other uniform issues that bother me. Like the multiple Quality Unit patches, the multiple temporary patches, etc. However, legitimate knots don't. They do show quite a bit about the Scouter's background.

And, as scoutaholic wrote, I consider them important to show the Scouts that we, as adults, are still advancing and learning, etc. It is amazing how quickly the kids (even Cubs) notice something different. That usually opens up a short conversation (that they started) that you can use.

I'm with most of the other posters - wear the uniform correct (i.e. lead by example).

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Knots

Postby riverwalk » Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:48 am

Ridge, the optimist and others have described the right approach, that being the official BSA guidelines. If people followed those, it would help. There are many ways to display, or wear unofficial or multiple patches. But the Uniform is expected to be uncluttered.
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Postby pipestone1991 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:10 pm

Billiken wrote:The guy at 7Ranges last year with the Eagle medal on his hat WAS NOT in accordance with BSA Uniform Guidelines:

http://www.meritbadge.net/phpbb/viewtop ... hlight=hat


He was at 7R!!!!!!!!!!!....anyway, I'm taking off my purple religous knot, it's not centered, and I earned a cub scout religous award so I don't think it's right.
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Postby Mrw » Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:26 pm

Leave the religious knot from cubs on your shirt. It still belongs there.
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Postby Billiken » Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:49 am

My hard copy of the BSA Insignia Guide is the 2006 edition. On page 51 it states:

Wearing medals and embroidered knots.
Knots are to be worn above the left pocket in rows of three. It is suggested that the knot deemed most important by the wearer be worn on his or her own right.

WVBeaver is correct (and I stand corrected). :D

There is no limit to the number of knots that can be worn.
By my very unscientific analysis last night it looks like the shirt can "support" five or six rows of three knots across.

Just curious, but I started a new thread re knots on uniform:

http://www.meritbadge.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2045
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Postby Billiken » Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:51 am

pipestone1991 wrote:
Billiken wrote:The guy at 7Ranges last year with the Eagle medal on his hat WAS NOT in accordance with BSA Uniform Guidelines:


He was at 7R!!!!!!!!!!!....anyway, I'm taking off my purple religous knot, it's not centered, and I earned a cub scout religous award so I don't think it's right.


pipestone1991 - the guy was a scouter, tall, and I'm sure will be back at week/session #1 this year. The hat was what I call a bucket hat (brim goes all the way around).
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Postby PaulSWolf » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:22 am

pipestone1991 wrote:....anyway, I'm taking off my purple religous knot, it's not centered, and I earned a cub scout religous award so I don't think it's right.


No Pipestone, you should keep the knot. It signifies ANY religious award earned as a youth. You should, however, add a small Cub Scout or Webelos Scout "Device" (pin) to the knot to show that it was earned as a Cub or Webelos Scout. Take a look at this page: http://usscouts.org/usscouts/awards/devices.html When you earn a religious award as a Scout, you will then add another pin showing the second award.

If it is the only knot you have, it should be centered.
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