BSA Uniforms

[optimist]

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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 192
Location: PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 07:28 am Post subject: BSA Uniforms

On the www.scouting.org site there is a survey about uniforms.
The big question is should we have one uniform for everything
and just use different collar shoulder tabs? Take a look at it
and fill it out
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Guneukitschik
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Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 07:43 am Post subject:

That would be the most logical change to make...

I think many people don't recognize the venture uniforms as
part of the boy scouts due to the fact that they recognize the
tan uniforms of the boy scouts and the blue cub scout
uniforms.
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Buffalo Bill
First Class

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 54
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 01:16 pm Post subject:

I think the fact that Venturers can choose their uniform or
have no uniform at all can contribute to the identification
problem.

It's been 25 years with this Oscar de la Renta combo, probably
time for a logical change.

Maybe some uniformity in uniforms would help the movement...

B2
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Guneukitschik
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Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 01:51 pm Post subject:

I think a change in the uniform would take years to take
effect... most scouts are not going to run out and drop 30+
bucks for a new uniform shirt unless they've outgrown the old
one!

Maybe if the come up with a new uniform they could have a
discounted rate at first to help more scouts make the switch.

I still know some older leaders that are wearing the old olive
green uniform shirts.
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RWSmith
Counselor

Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 01:56 pm Post subject:

Guneukitschik wrote:
I still know some older leaders that are wearing the old
olive green uniform shirts.

And, unless and until National makes a change in policy, any
official BSA uniform ever issued --ever-- is still (for lack
of a better word) "legal."
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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 192
Location: PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 02:03 pm Post subject:

The only scouts that would be affected ARe Cubs and Ventures.
As Far as Ventures choosing a uniform the only time a Real
Uniform is needed is for Like Next Years National Scout
Jamboree and Any Venturer on staff MUST have a Class A Uniform
(complete) Shirt Shorts Socks
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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 02:24 pm Post subject:

Maybe if National would just keep all the shorts/pants the
same at least that way...something would be interchangable.

Although I like the idea of the tan shirts with the different
colored epaulets.
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Buffalo Bill
First Class

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 54
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 02:26 pm Post subject:

You are probably right that the additional cost would be a
detriment, but they had to change them before. Folks then
weren't too happy about the cost.

Since we can wear any of the old uniforms a simple phase in
wouldn't hurt. Stop selling the old uniforms after stock
depletion and continue the wearing of the old and new until
the old is phased out through attrition.

B2
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Guneukitschik
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Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 02:31 pm Post subject:

I do remember when they got rid of the knee socks and then
everyone complained and they reappeared in the catalog....

I don't see the red barret making a come back....although it
made a sharp looking flag ceremony colorguard
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Buffalo Bill
First Class

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 54
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 02:41 pm Post subject:

Ahh, but you can still get the red berets! Saw a Troop with
them last year, looked sharp. All the boys in full Class A
complete with belts and socks. and all wearing berets.

Impressed this old Buffalope.

B2
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Guneukitschik
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Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 02:44 pm Post subject:

I doubt they were the official BSA one's with the
Fluer-de-leis patch on the front. But they do look
sharp....kind of militarish..but sharp!

I guess you could make it your official Troop headgear and buy
the berrets from a supplier somewhere?
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Buffalo Bill
First Class

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 54
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 02:54 pm Post subject:

I think they had some FDLs made and sewn/glued on the berets.

Be careful though, if they come from a military source the
self-appointed BSA uniform police will get you! You might want
to make sure the source doesn't contract with the military.
Easiest way to avoid the majority of the conflict. I am sure
that some will still find fault and berate you (get it
"berate"--oh I kill myself!).

B2
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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 192
Location: PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 04:02 pm Post subject:

WHen I was a staff member 35 years ago ALl staff had campaign
hats now very few wear them as they are expensive. They at one
time sold the leather band separately but I guess too many
people were buying hats elsewear and not from the BSA. The old
Scout caps (those with military background know what they are
called) were OK but times have changed. A quality trail hat
would fit the ticket.Like Columbias or OR's they are useful.
The Berets were and are classy but extremely hot . I do not
know how the military wear them in the Hot weather. AS far as
the Uniform Police We all know what is correct uniforming but
still many choose to go their own way. If a troop would show
up with Pink shirts and Bright Green shorts all the camo guys
would be having a stroke. I spent three years as lodge advisor
and during those three years we eliminated camo at lodge
weekends except when working(cheerful service) They were not
permitted to wear any camo with anything that was part of the
BSA Uniform. This worked. The Youth still wore their camo and
still wore their Uniforms. What prompted this was just before
I was Lodge Advisor a new ordeals parents were very reluctant
to leave their young son at a weekend to take his Ordeal with
all the Guys in Camo around . Now when a new Ordeal Shows up
everyone they are in contact with are in Class A Uniforms.
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Buffalo Bill
First Class

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 54
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 07:52 am Post subject:

I still think the fact that Venturing does not use Uniforms as
one of its methods contributes to the identity problem. Even
the emblem lacks anything associating it with BSA.

It appears odd to me that if one uses the natural progression
argument that I've heard numerous times; Cubs--Boy
Scouts--Venturing, that uniforms would remain a logical
method.

It's as if the corporation has decided to forsake the
uniforming method in order to attract more fringe elements
that would not join if that were one of the methods.

Don't get me wrong, Venturing is a fine program. There are
just certain elements I don't understand the real logic
behind.

B2
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optimist
Advancement Chairman

Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 148

Posted: 13 Aug 2004 08:51 am Post subject:

Not only is it logical to continue using uniforms simply
because it's a continuation of the program, failing to use
uniforms goes against the well known social concepts the BSA
has always been so good at acknowledging and using to their
advantage.

Back to the basics: Boy Scout troops are nothing but gangs of
boys with positive guidance (actually BSA philosophy!!). All
gangs identify themselves in some way. Street gangs refer to
it as colors. A Scout's colors are his uniform. Simple stuff

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[optimist]

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Buffalo Bill
First Class

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 54
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 08:55 am Post subject:

Very simple.

I do remember reading BP's references the gangs somewhere. It
wasn'r with the negative conotation that we tend to associate
the term with today.

Long live colors!

B2
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[Guneukitschik]

Despite the gang reference...the boys still need to feel a part of a TEAM or GROUP and the uniform allows them to do that. Plus they can display all their awards/rank, etc.

I think the fact that Venture Crews are allowed to pick their uniform is basically to attract more members... There will always be those kids who hate wearing a uniform and this would give them the opportunity to participate in the Venturing program...I don't really agree with it but I can understand why.

I think the old Explorer programs were basically the same... a unit associated with the police could wear a police uniform, etc...

[wagionvigil]

I noticed on the Tooth of Time Traders site they have convertible pants. But there is no picture. Possibly these are going to be our next scout pants.

[Guneukitschik]

well...you never know...I think they have had them at Philmont for a while? I have to admit...they would be a heck of a lot better than the official pants now!

[wagionvigil]

Scouts, what would you think of a policeman in full uniform except for trousers which were of bright plaid material? How about a hospital intern wearing a sport coat over is white uniform while on duty? Or what would you think of a train conductor wearing a fireman's cap or, even more absurd, an airline pilot wearing the silks of a jockey as he boarded the plane?
They'd all be "out of uniform," wouldn't they? With some of the outfits mentioned, you would be sure what they really were.
Scouts, we have a uniform, too. We have a full uniform - not just a neckerchief or just a shirt, but like the people I just mentioned, we have a full uniform. When we don't wear the full uniform, we are just as "out of uniform" as the policeman with the plaid pants.
The Flag Code says that when we are "in uniform" we salute the flag with the Scout salute, but when "out of uniform" we salute by holding our right hand over our heart.
How do you think a Scout should salute the flag if he's wearing blue jeans or chinos or some other non-official dress along with part of the uniform? He's not "in uniform," is he?

[Guneukitschik]

I would have to answer that all (including those with just a uniform shirt) salute the flag.

How does this apply to a Venture Crew that is able to choose their uniform?

[wagionvigil]

you said the Answer A Venture Crew can choose their uniform. Uniform means the same. So as long as they are dressed in what they chose for a uniform they are in uniform. Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts do not have that option.

[Guneukitschik]

The Venturing issue is and most likely will remain confusing for most crews....


As far as the Boy Scout uniform... Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I think blue jeans or BDU style pants are acceptable as a part of the official uniform...I think most units allow them to be worn simply because most parents will not fork out the $40.00 for a pair of BSA pants simply to outgrow them in less than a year. I'm sure someone out there has a troop policy saying they have to wear a certain type of pant/short/whatever...but most troops recognize the offical pants/shorts and make due with whatever they get.

[t305spl]

I have had the same uniform pants for 5 years now and they still fit. Yes they are expensive but the answer is Buy Them Big And Hem Them Up.
Its exactly the same thing I have to do with my school uniform except they cost $65 a pair. You have got to make them last. There are ways to do this but you have got to be smart about it if you don't want to buy a new pair each year.

[cballman]

when in cub scouts we asked the parents to get a shirt and told the to buy it about 2-3 sizes to big because the kids will grow into it. since the kids will grow every year we told them to wear blue jeans because they were blu and every kid has at least one pair. now in Boy scouts we ask that they buy a shirt 2-3 sizes to big because they will grow into it. now come the funny part we have asked for parents to buy a green pair of shorts or pants that closely matches the green uniform pants. but we still have kids coming in with red, yellow, and orange shorts. Now do we tell these kids to come back when they have green shorts on or do we let them get away with this? I personally have a BSA pants and shirts. or I will wear green shorts. all of our leaders follow this code very well. my only problem is with the neckercheif, most of the factory made ones or to little for some of us full figured scouters

[wagionvigil]

I am not sure what to tell you. I know what I would do But I will not say it on here. My son was on a soccer team several years ago. Uniform,Shin Guards, Spikes. All good for one season $100.00 +. Most parents would not bat an eye spending this money for a sport. But just do not get the importance of scouting. How many boys make it big because of sports? Very few. But how many boys get good jobs because of scouting? A Whole lot more. Try buying dance costumes for 18 years.

[BM_Crawford]

BSA Policy doesnt mandate that you even have to wear a uniform at all. Some people can't afford the whole uniform and I think a hand-me-down shirt and neckercheif does just fine.

BTW you cant really compare police and medical assistance to Boy Scouts because under law only the BSA and the Military are given legal rights with uniforms.

[dparker]

I am not sure what to tell you. I know what I would do But I will not say it on here. My son was on a soccer team several years ago. Uniform,Shin Guards, Spikes. All good for one season $100.00 +. Most parents would not bat an eye spending this money for a sport. But just do not get the importance of scouting. How many boys make it big because of sports? Very few. But how many boys get good jobs because of scouting? A Whole lot more. Try buying dance costumes for 18 years.

I guess it would really depend on the economic conditions of the area where your troop is. My troop is located in a county with one of the highest unemployment rates in the state. Several of the boys' families receive public assistance and most of the others are just getting by. They would definitely flinch at dropping $100 for soccer and most don't. I have 1 boy in the whole troop that plays soccer. The others that do play sports generally choose sports that require little "capital" investment.

For our troop (and I make this qualification explicitly), asking boys to spend $100+ on uniforms is just too much. I want the boys to learn the rank skills, learn about MB subjects and feel like they belong to a group. I don't think the lack of a hat or official pants really takes that much away.

[wagionvigil]

Something everyone might want to consider is a Uniform Bank. If a scout out grows a uniform shitrt or pant they can do a trade or buy a new item at a discount with the trade in. Could this be started as an Eagle Project?

[Guneukitschik]

We have a uniform bank in our troop and it has worked out very well. We have given uniforms to some scouts who couldn't afford them. Sometimes the scouts make a donation for the uniform. Our pack is also involved and we rotate the smaller uniforms back down for them to use.
Another great thing is that most of these uniforms still have the council strip and numbers on so that saves them buying and sewing too!

[optimist]

Uniform Banks are wonderful! Unfortunately, they do not qualify as Eagle projects because such projects may not directly benefit the Scouting program, they must benefit the community at large.

[BillyBob]

Hi

I have been wanting to buy the Timeless Values Cap for a little while and its quite a drive to a sout shop, so i was wondering f there was anyplace to buy them online?

[optimist]

No, you can't buy official BSA supplies online because the it is against BSA policy. However, you can order supplies toll free at 1-800-323-0732.

[wagionvigil]

Actually there might be a way around it if the sponsoring organization ran the Uniform Bank. The reason I brought it up was when I was eagle Chairman I was asked the question and had to turn the young man down. But that really bothered me because I saw so much good coming out of it so I have been thinking on this for about two years.