Webelos and Camporees

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Webelos and Camporees

Postby outfoxed86 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:45 pm

Our District for the Past 17 years has had webeols scouts attending our camporees. they regester as a pack with Proper adult leadership.We run a sperate program under a joint theam. Last year people on our district committee tried to stop the Webelos from comming. They stated that they were not allowd to stay over. They quoted the GTSS that it wasnt age apprperate. My question is this If we are running a sucessful program for 17 years why do we have to stop now ? Does anyone else do this? We have foud it has helped our webelos to scout Transision.
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Postby evmori » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:53 pm

Webelos are not allowed to camp with Troops & participate in with the Troop in their camporee but they can attend a camporee & participate in their own separate program. There is nothing to prevent them from camping overnight.

Here is an excerpt from the G2SS.

A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips.
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Postby wagionvigil » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:59 pm

remember it is one to one supervision. One webelos one adult(parent) If you cnnot get the one to one you canno0t go.
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Postby outfoxed86 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:43 pm

thats not the problem here we do have one on one parent and son The webelos sleep as a pack We run seperate program When you look at the chart for age appropeate activities Under webelos it says Camporees day only. this is where the arguments start .This is in conflect with the excerpt from GTSS that evmori posted. so which is right? We feel that we are running two Camporees under one common theam. So we have contuinued with what we have been doing . I was courious if any one else does this.
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Postby wagionvigil » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:44 pm

GTSS is always Correct
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Postby RWSmith » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:35 pm

Yes, it is true, the "BSA No. 16-280 Chart" does indicate that Webelos Unit Leaders should consider limiting Webelos unit-level participation at Boy/Varsity/Venture Scout Camporees to a 'VISIT ONLY'. However, that's not all there is to it; the following is the full text of BSA No. 18-260, in which "the chart" is a supplemental reference:

    Age-Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities

    View a chart showing age-appropriate guidelines for Scouting activities in one of the following formats:

      HTML - for best legibility on screen
      PDF - to print on 11" x 17" paper (or click the "save" icon in Adobe Acrobat to save a copy on your computer)

    Criteria for Assessing Whether an Activity Is Age-Appropriate

    These criteria are designed to assist unit leaders in determining what activities are age-appropriate. Activities that do not appear on the chart should be reviewed using these criteria.

      The group-based activity matches the training and experience of participants. The group has the ability to successfully complete the activity.
      The activity complies with the policies and procedures in the Guide to Safe Scouting - No. 34416C.
      The activity supports or is in harmony with Scouting values.
      The activity adds to the life experiences, knowledge, or abilities of participants.
      The unit or group receives training appropriate to the activity.

    In addition to the general criteria, the following program-specific criteria apply.

    Cub Scouting

      The activity is parent/youth- or family-oriented.
      The activity is conducted with adult supervision.
      Cub Scouts are asked to do their best.
      The activity is discovery-based.

    Boy Scouting

      Activities are led by youth and approved and supervised by adults.
      Activities are patrol- or troop-oriented.
      Activities meet standards and advancement requirements.
      Activities are experience-based.

    Venturing/Varsity Scouting

      Activities are led by youth and supported by adults.
      Youth participants develop and plan activities and set and meet their own challenges.
      Activities are socially based with coed participation.

    Why have these guidelines been developed?

      1. To provide national consistency for what is offered for BSA youth programs and activities
      2. To match the degree of difficulty of activities to the age and rank of participants, thereby helping to avoid accidents and injuries
      3. To help retain youth membership in BSA programs by offering activities with a progression of challenge, duration, and intensity
      4. To help strike a balance among parent, leader, and youth expectations
      5. To provide some protection for unit leaders by establishing parameters for programs and activities

    The BSA recognizes that youth in various parts of the country develop at different rates. These guidelines are designed to demonstrate the mainstream of youth capabilities.

    For instance, Cub Scouts may be involved in winter camping in Alaska, where cold-weather activities are part of the culture. On the West Coast and Gulf Coast, surfing may be appropriate for Boy Scouts. In the Northeast, youth begin playing street and ice hockey at an early age.

    Because of the varying development rates among youth, these activity guidelines are flexible and should not be perceived as requirements or rules. They address the mainstream of youth abilities while allowing for exceptions for Scouting units and groups based on the consideration and judgment of unit, district, and council committees and boards. Older Boy Scouts should be at least 13 years of age by January 1 of the year they participate.

    All participation in activities must comply with federal, state, and local regulations.


BSA No. 18-260 does reference the G2SS. However, only the 18-260 Chart is attached to the G2SS, not the 18-260 itself. The G2SS and the 18-260 (including its supplemental Chart) both apply. The Bottom Line: Although the 18-260 Chart does suggest Webelos Unit-level activities be limited to "Visit Only" at Camporees, that does not mean a District/Council cannot organize and run a District/Council-sponsored Webelos event (overnight camping, pioneering archery, etc.) side-by-side with a Camporee... Like you said, two separate events, with the added benefit of the Webelos getting to "visit" the Camporee, too. No problem.
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Postby WVBeaver05 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:10 pm

wagionvigil wrote:GTSS is always Correct

Well, I guess it is, but as mentioned earlier (and in previous posts) there are times when it is not clear and appears to contridict its-self.

YiS
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Camporee

Postby riverwalk » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:24 pm

Sounds like the only problem is...the District Committee. Find out why they don't want you involved. Perhaps they have history, or a reason, or they are just stuck in their ruts.
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Postby WeeWillie » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:40 am

Our District Camping Chair and Assistant recently came back from Philmont with the same story. It went round and round, but eventually Webelos were allowed to attend our Fall Camporee. Make sure your Local Tour Permits are submitted.

I'm sure this will go round and round for a while. Evenmtually, someone will realize that if we want Webelos to join Scout troops we better do a better job with the transition process.
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Postby FrankJ » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:09 pm

Getting Webelos to transition to Boys Scout is one of the biggest membership issues we face. Programs like the describe here sound great. It is age appropiate. It shows cub & parent the differences in the programs, why they should continue on to boy scouts, and allows them to observe different troops in action.

It is not a camporee in the sense that the program is designed for Boy Scout ages & would have the cubs competing against the scouts.

Done properly, I don't see it as unsafe or against G2SS.
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Postby outfoxed86 » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:30 pm

thanks FrankJ
You know when people have their own agenda and want to mess things upthe first place they go to is the GTSS and take out paragraphs and manipulate them. We went to National about this and they said as long as there were two programs and seperate sleeping arrangements It would be fine. To give you an example what we did in the fall Our theam was Around the worl in 80 days
(the theam is picked by the spls at the last camporee) for the boyscouts we worked on the orenteering MB for the webelos we worked on the Map and compass and Geography Belt loops and Pins.We tied it all together with the search for Finius Fog two camporees under a common theam. In the Morning we had 5 round robin teaching stations.After lunch we had 5 stations All over camp that were named for countries around the worldthese were working stations for the boys to use their skills. for the boyscouts to get to their countires They were given a starting point and compass bering and feet to get to them, with at least 4 turning points. they all had a great time
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Postby Lynda J » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:48 pm

One thing we all need to remember is that G2SS is there for a reason.
To keep the boys safe and to keep US as leaders safe. If you plan an activity and are in violation to the G2SS and a boy gets injured as a result the adult in charge can be help responsible and your Council will not stand behind you. And there is a posibility that BSA insurance would not cover any injuries.

We simply can't change safety requirements because we have this great program.

There was a Troop some time back that posted how great their pallet races were. They had been having them for several years. They would tie wooden pallets by ropes behind pickups and drag the boys on the. They saw nothing wrong with this. "THE BOYS HAD FUN" That may have been but they sure had been lucky in that there had never been a boy injured.

Would you ever meet one on one with a boy? I sure won't. YPT doesn't allow it. G2SS does not allow some activities.
You stated how to we teach boys to be responsible. We do it by teaching them to follow the rules. We don't break laws simply because we don't like them. We teach boys to abide by the rules.

And if National approved this program why is there a problem. If they approved it I am sure that you got written approval from them.
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Postby Nuts4Scouts » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:26 pm

The G2SS Age Appropriate Guidelines say "day only" for Camporees because Boy Scout activities are for Boy Scouts, not for Webelos Cub Scouts.

Webelos are still Cub Scouts & all of their activities should follow the G2SS rules, Age Appropriate Guidelines, & all other rules for Cub Scouts.

Outfoxed, the way your District is doing the Camporee, with 2 separate programs, is the correct way to handle it. It might help your District Committee to understand better if you changed things around a bit. Have a Camporee for the Boy Scouts & a Webelos-ree for the Webelos. Now your separate programs also have separate names.

Here is the BSA's outline of a Webelos-ree :

http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/resou ... index.html
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Postby outfoxed86 » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:43 pm

Lynda J wrote:And if National approved this program why is there a problem. If they approved it I am sure that you got written approval from them.


LyndaJ
because people like to cause trouble. If its not what they want then noone should do it. They think that if they keep stirring the kettle we will eventually back down. Two years ago we had a new district chairman elected who was part of this little group. He sidded with them a appointed one of them as ActivitesChairman. all activies in our district suffered because of the radical changes they made because it was what they wanted
The units in our district wet crazy that chairman lasted only one term.the people speak what they want and we provide it.Not with out stress from the few .
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Postby joat » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:29 pm

Nuts4Scouts wrote:Have a Camporee for the Boy Scouts & a Webelos-ree for the Webelos. Now your separate programs also have separate names.

Our district camporee always includes the Webelos Cub Scouts. The event gets dumbed down to accomodate the Cubs, and that tends to kill the interest of the Boy Scouts. The combined event got started one year when the district committee couldn't put together a Web-O-Ree, so they just invited the Cubs to the Boy Scout camporee instead.

The concept is the same as the pack in town that combines Wolfs, Bears, and Webelos into one den because its easier than doing it the right way.
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Postby outfoxed86 » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:18 pm

joat wrote:
Nuts4Scouts wrote:Have a Camporee for the Boy Scouts & a Webelos-ree for the Webelos. Now your separate programs also have separate names.

Our district camporee always includes the Webelos Cub Scouts. The event gets dumbed down to accomodate the Cubs, and that tends to kill the interest of the Boy Scouts. The combined event got started one year when the district committee couldn't put together a Web-O-Ree, so they just invited the Cubs to the Boy Scout camporee instead.

The concept is the same as the pack in town that combines Wolfs, Bears, and Webelos into one den because its easier than doing it the right way.


What your district is doing is against national policy for the reason you just stated. watered down program for boyscouts or too much program for webelos.
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