white gas stoves

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white gas stoves

Postby hacimsaalk » Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:47 pm

i know of many pro-hikers that use white gas stoves when they backpack. i was talking with my dad tonight about getting one for the high adventure hike in june. he said that they werent legal for scout use. my question is, who is right? are they "legal" for scout use or not?

thanks


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Postby ICanCanoeCanU » Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:25 pm

Someone else can answer the legal part of your question as I don't know. BUT - I would never recommend gas for hiking purposes. If you trip and fall or the latern falls, the gas can spread very easily and the flame spreads almost as quick. For hiking, the battery operated or canister propane is the best option. Although I will admit, on the issue of the environment, I really don't like the canister propane.
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Postby commish3 » Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:28 pm

White gas has many advantages, and is superior for hiking and camping to liquid propane in many ways, but it also has some drawbacks primarily in the area of safety during operation and refueling. Due to danger of leaks and spills (both accidentally and purposely) there are rules that must be followed when using white gas.

1) Not all camp locations allow the use of white gas appliances, this includes many BSA council properties. You must know the rules and restrictions of you campground.

2) The BSA requires that white gas appliance only be operated in the presence of adults. That means during set-up, lighting, and refueling you need to be under adult supervision.

3) Excess gas must be stored in an approved container and kept in a locked storage unite when not in use (this could be a trailer, vehicle, fuel locker, etc.)

You can find more on the use of alternate fuels in the BSA Guide To Safe Scouting, section VII
http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss07.html#b
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Postby hacimsaalk » Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:30 pm

ICanCanoeCanU wrote:Someone else can answer the legal part of your question as I don't know. BUT - I would never recommend gas for hiking purposes. If you trip and fall or the latern falls, the gas can spread very easily and the flame spreads almost as quick. For hiking, the battery operated or canister propane is the best option. Although I will admit, on the issue of the environment, I really don't like the canister propane.


you would use propane??? that is more dangerous than a white gas STOVE. if you bump the propane, it can explode, it will also spread when it gets close to flames, in fact it explodes.


btw we are talking stoves, not lanterns
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Postby wagionvigil » Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:44 pm

this is covered in "the Guide to safe scouting" my last trip to Philmont we used white gas. ALso I use both when camping the gas is messy but wyou don't have the container to throw away when empty. The new fuel bottles to carry gas are really bomb proof.
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Postby commish3 » Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:38 pm

you would use propane??? that is more dangerous than a white gas STOVE. if you bump the propane, it can explode, it will also spread when it gets close to flames, in fact it explodes.


I think you have confused the two products hacimsaalk. Bottled propane cannot spill, nor will it explode if bumped, and it cannot spread if close to flames.
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Postby OldGreyBear » Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:45 pm

Dosesnt propane really stink in cold weather as well? and at altitude?
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Postby ICanCanoeCanU » Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:55 pm

Holy Moly - I'm going to stop responding to these boards!

I'm sorry the original thread does state "stove", now how I came up with lanterns is beyond me?
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Postby commish3 » Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:41 pm

Once the temperature drops into the 30s the gas begins to return to its liquid state causing the pressure in the tank to drop thus reducing the flow of the fuel. High altitudes have the same effect but for different reasons.

The advantage of white gas is that you control the tank pressure through the use of a pump, allowing you to maintain pressure at extremely low temperatures.
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Postby West » Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:34 pm

Yep, living in the UP for a bit, I learned to hate my canister stove. When I climbed Ranier I was really gald I'd switched to white gas. I've never looked up the offical policy, but can tell you that on all of our high adventrue type trips we've used white gas. I honestly can't imagine useing anything else.
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Postby Rick Tyler » Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:32 am

Since our troop camps in Washington, and rarely experiences temps under 15 degrees F, we standardized on the Coleman Exponent stoves. They use Powermax canisters, a mixture of propane and butane, and are rated for use down to 0 degrees. Their canisters are aluminum and can be recycled (directions on how to release the residual gas and flatten the canisters come with the stove). The canisters cost more per meal than white gas, but no one ever had an 11-year-old Scout light their sleeve or shoe on fire with Powermax, either.
http://www.coleman.com/coleman/ColemanCom/subcategory.asp?CategoryID=24752

These are the stoves our troop uses on all its high adventure treks, including Philmont.
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Postby ASM-142 » Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:14 am

And with the discount that Coleman has this will cost about $30 for a single burner
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Postby vpalango » Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:43 am

commish3 wrote:White gas has many advantages, and is superior for hiking and camping to liquid propane in many ways, but it also has some drawbacks primarily in the area of safety during operation and refueling. Due to danger of leaks and spills (both accidentally and purposely) there are rules that must be followed when using white gas.


I concur with commish, and have a couple of comments...

I've used white gas stoves and lanterns almost exclusively when hiking for years. However, when using these apliances on a hiking trip some special precautions need to be taken.

First, on an extended trip, you will probably need a spare bottle of fuel. There are approved bottles for storing fuel, and they can be packed in your pack. I take an additional precaution of containing the bottle within another container (I use a large, zipable bottle insulator) so that any trace amounts of fuel that may have spilled on the outside of the bottle are contained. Also, when using a bottle for re-fueling, follow the Guide to Safe Scouting procedures for fueling. At that point, don't replace the bottle in your pack until you are ready to go, to allow the bottle to evaporate any spilled fuel on the outside.

Second, use a good add on spout for dispensing fuel. Coleman sells one which works very well. It attaches to standard fuel bottles, and acts as a pressure valve which allows you to fill resovoirs with minimal spillage.

Third, inspect and test your stove/lantern in a safe/controlled place before leaving on each outing. I had an almost disaster once on Mt. Washington when I tried to light a stove which had a failed generator. The flames were spectacular and we got them out, but that hikinig group calls me "Burnin' Vernon" to this day. Since that time, I am very careful to test all my white gas equipment before I leave on a trip.

White gas stoves & lanterns are great, and personally I swear by them. However, if you use them you need to take extra precautions, and be very sure you understand everything about how they work, and how to care for them.

Yours in Scouting,
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Postby hacimsaalk » Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:09 am

ICanCanoeCanU wrote:Holy Moly - I'm going to stop responding to these boards!

I'm sorry the original thread does state "stove", now how I came up with lanterns is beyond me?


its ok :D
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White gas

Postby jk » Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:07 pm

White gas is safe.
You are all over reacting to the fact that you can spill the gas.
I have had white gas spill on a trip when my MSR wisperlite stove was ignited. The fuel did ignite. I simply shut off the stove and stomped the fire out with my boots. The fire did not spread, and in about 60 seconds I had the stove up and running.
Next.
I take an additional precaution of containing the bottle within another container (I use a large, zipable bottle insulator) so that any trace amounts of fuel that may have spilled on the outside of the bottle are contained.

This is not an issue, white gas will evaporate in seconds if it is spilled.

At the end of the trip i will burn off all the remaining white gas, and drop a match down the spout of the container to burn off all the vapors. It does not explode out it simply burns like a candle.
Not convinced look for a white gas MSDS sheet online.
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Stove? What Stove?

Postby ThunderingWind » Wed May 17, 2006 4:37 pm

Stove?.....Brave go days without stove...... :D
Eat nuts and berries like Brother Bear......

Actually, I use the Coleman Xponet with PowerMax (Propane/butane blend) cans. I never liked carrying 22 to 44 oz of white gas in my ruck sack.
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Postby JRTroop270 » Wed May 17, 2006 8:44 pm

White gas stoves are legal for scout use my troop has several
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Postby FrankJ » Wed May 17, 2006 9:56 pm

Both white gas & compressed gas require adult supervision per guide to safe scouting. Both are quite safe if used properly.
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Postby deweylure » Thu May 18, 2006 8:14 am

Any way you look at it thereshould be adult supervision with the use of any material which could burn.

Any type of gas in a canister such as propane is designed with safety in mind. At a certain temperature I believe a relief valve will open and the can will expand. At this temp I doubt any person will be nearby. Look at the bottom of thye can it is concave check your other aerosal containers too.

White gas can be stored in the original container. I have seen the fuel bottles but have never used one as I have a popane /butane mix stove that uses canisters. The bottles i have seen are aluminum and have a gasketed top. I would however store it inside a bag strategically placed not next to my food.

If the scouts cook with charcoal at drive in camps I do not allow lighter fluid as this stuff is a hazard. I believe this is in G2S.

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Please consult the MDS as other posts have indicated.
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Postby FrankJ » Thu May 18, 2006 9:57 pm

G2S says you are not allowed to use liquid fuel to start fires in bold. Adult or otherwise. Persumably that would include charcoal fires although that is the listed use of lighter fluid. We use the charcoal chimneys & news paper or put the the chimney on a propane camp stove.

White gas will wick thru plastic baggies. I have never had a problem with my fuel cannisters leaking although it is a good idea to store it seperately from your food.

I think the chemicals fuels section of G2S was written by risk management types & not scouters, but it is what it is.
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