Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Everything done outdoors! Experiences, ideas, tips, and places to go! Hiking and geocaching; backpacking and camping; cold-weather and snow camping, too!

Moderators: Site Admin, Moderators

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby fritz1255 » Wed May 20, 2009 1:50 pm

All that the Tour permit shows is that the preparer has filled in all the blanks properly, and has not done something really goofy like tried to file a permit for a paintballing excursion. Other points:

1) Do you really think that anyone is going to list an unlicensed/uninsured driver on the form?
2) I am an NRA certified rifle instructor, and I can tell you that it is impossible to verify anyone's qualifications through the NRA in any reasonable amount of time.
3) If a unit is not active by the Tour Permit process, the Council will revoke their charter? I doubt it.
4) Most "training" through BSA is in hour-or-less sessions, many on-line, and is more of a formality than anything else.

I still think that the process does not make trips any safer.
fritz1255
Life
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:39 am
Location: Chester County Council

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby wagionvigil » Wed May 20, 2009 2:02 pm

fritz1255 wrote:All that the Tour permit shows is that the preparer has filled in all the blanks properly, and has not done something really goofy like tried to file a permit for a paintballing excursion. Other points:

1) Do you really think that anyone is going to list an unlicensed/uninsured driver on the form?
2) I am an NRA certified rifle instructor, and I can tell you that it is impossible to verify anyone's qualifications through the NRA in any reasonable amount of time.
3) If a unit is not active by the Tour Permit process, the Council will revoke their charter? I doubt it.
4) Most "training" through BSA is in hour-or-less sessions, many on-line, and is more of a formality than anything else.

I still think that the process does not make trips any safer.

If you fail to file one or you fill it out improperly you will be held accountable along with the CO if things go south. You will get no support from the BSA. I have a feeling BSA is going to start eliminating units that are outlaw so to speak. I will not do climbing with any troop that does not have a tour permit.
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear, You're a Meal!"
wagionvigil
Counselor
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby FrankJ » Wed May 20, 2009 2:51 pm

Reasons I see for filing a toup permit:
I am assuming that the unit has some one of good faith & is basically following the scout law to fill it out honestly. Remember the Charter Org has the ultimate responsibility to qualify its leaders. If you are relying on your council to do that, shame on you.

One: It is a planning tool. You should be going the same basic steps rather or not you actually file the thing. If you are really using unlicensed, uninsured drivers in your program, you should probably stop.

Two: It lets the council know the units are doing.

I have to admit that the logic used by some councils on when one is required escapes me. :roll:
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby FieldSports » Wed May 20, 2009 6:08 pm

fritz1255 wrote:1) Do you really think that anyone is going to list an unlicensed/uninsured driver on the form? Yes, saw one with an active DUI
2) I am an NRA certified rifle instructor, and I can tell you that it is impossible to verify anyone's qualifications through the NRA in any reasonable amount of time. Ask to see their card
3) If a unit is not active by the Tour Permit process, the Council will revoke their charter? I doubt it.I doubt it also, but it does signal to the commissioner that something is not right and they can follow-up
4) Most "training" through BSA is in hour-or-less sessions, many on-line, and is more of a formality than anything else. If that is how you wish to interpret the training. IMHO, most people do get something out of the training.

I still think that the process does not make trips any safer.In some ways no. You can't fix stupid. You can however document what they should be doing.
Advisor and Coach
Owl - Whooo R U?
2005 National Jamboree Staff - Action Center A Trapshooting
2010 National Jamboree Troop 826
Wood Badge SM WE4-33-08
Silver Beaver
"Turning Boys into Men, One Scout at a Time"
FieldSports
Life
 
Posts: 248
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:42 pm
Location: LAAC

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby smtroop168 » Wed May 20, 2009 6:13 pm

If you use the online TP, all the dates of training and certs are saved. YOu just click on who is going and the council approves them.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby FrankJ » Wed May 20, 2009 10:19 pm

If you use the online TP, all the dates of training and certs are saved. YOu just click on who is going and the council approves them.


But they are they certs & dates you put in. It is still up to the unit to be sure they are correct. I on hoping that the online system is a work in progress.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby wagionvigil » Thu May 21, 2009 6:50 am

If I am not mistaken the Online version accesses information in scoutnet that the council has and also Myscouting if you have done online training.
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear, You're a Meal!"
wagionvigil
Counselor
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby fritz1255 » Thu May 21, 2009 7:32 am

If you fail to file one or you fill it out improperly you will be held accountable along with the CO if things go south. You will get no support from the BSA. I have a feeling BSA is going to start eliminating units that are outlaw so to speak.


I fill these out as best I can. Since we are supposed to fill these out two weeks or more before the event, I usually know the destination and tour leader, and have to guess at who will be driving. If my Tour permits (or any one that I have ever seen) were used as a legal document, they would never hold up.

My suscpicion is that the main reason for the Tour permit process is to justify at least part of someone's job at the Council service center. BSA is a beaureacracy like most others, and while part of their function is public service, part is also self-perpetuation.

BSA eliminate units? Have you ever been through the recharter process? In at least some cases, the District Executive essentially camps out at someone's home for a few hours on December 31 and fills out the Charter for them. I expect that the Tour Permit process will be similar if push comes to shove.
fritz1255
Life
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:39 am
Location: Chester County Council

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby FrankJ » Thu May 21, 2009 7:34 am

If I am not mistaken the Online version accesses information in scoutnet that the council has and also Myscouting if you have done online training.


Maybe in the future, but not now. I enter training records as I need them. I am pretty sure some have not made it to scoutnet. Which maybe a good thing considering how adult leader training records are kept in scout net.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby evmori » Thu May 21, 2009 7:51 am

FieldSports wrote:
fritz1255 wrote:1) Do you really think that anyone is going to list an unlicensed/uninsured driver on the form? Yes, saw one with an active DUI
2) I am an NRA certified rifle instructor, and I can tell you that it is impossible to verify anyone's qualifications through the NRA in any reasonable amount of time. Ask to see their card
3) If a unit is not active by the Tour Permit process, the Council will revoke their charter? I doubt it.I doubt it also, but it does signal to the commissioner that something is not right and they can follow-up
4) Most "training" through BSA is in hour-or-less sessions, many on-line, and is more of a formality than anything else. If that is how you wish to interpret the training. IMHO, most people do get something out of the training.

I still think that the process does not make trips any safer.In some ways no. You can't fix stupid. You can however document what they should be doing.


Excellent rebuttal! And while you can't fix stupid, they can be held accountable!
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby smtroop168 » Thu May 21, 2009 8:12 am

fritz1255 wrote:
If you fail to file one or you fill it out improperly you will be held accountable along with the CO if things go south. You will get no support from the BSA. I have a feeling BSA is going to start eliminating units that are outlaw so to speak.


I fill these out as best I can. Since we are supposed to fill these out two weeks or more before the event, I usually know the destination and tour leader, and have to guess at who will be driving. If my Tour permits (or any one that I have ever seen) were used as a legal document, they would never hold up. I WOULDN'T WANT TO BE THE FIRST TO TEST THAT.

My suscpicion is that the main reason for the Tour permit process is to justify at least part of someone's job at the Council service center. BSA is a beaureacracy like most others, and while part of their function is public service, part is also self-perpetuation. THAT'S A HUGE STRETCH.

BSA eliminate units? Have you ever been through the recharter process? In at least some cases, the District Executive essentially camps out at someone's home for a few hours on December 31 and fills out the Charter for them. I expect that the Tour Permit process will be similar if push comes to shove.


Just think of the TP as insurance. Some think they don't need insurance because they are a safe driver but when they get hit by someone they wished they had it. My Father in Law is from NH where adults don't have to wear seatbelts. He says "Look at our Licence Plate. It says "Live free or die"". I say it doesn't say "Live Free AND Die". Spend the few minutes doing the TP either on line or on the green form and stop the conspiracy theories.
"Providing Quality Info One Paragraph At A Time"
smtroop168
Silver Palm
 
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: New Birth of Freedom Council Carlisle PA

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby FrankJ » Thu May 21, 2009 9:57 am

Tour permits have nothing to do general liability insurance.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby ThunderingWind » Thu May 21, 2009 10:11 am

FrankJ wrote:Tour permits have nothing to do general liability insurance.
Now, see, I was trained that the TP was part of the Liability Insurance policy. And that without a Tour Permit, the Adult leaders were personally on the hook for any issues.
No Longer a Registered Scouter
ThunderingWind
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1081
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:16 pm
Location: longer affiliated with the BSA

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby FrankJ » Thu May 21, 2009 11:50 am

Now, see, I was trained that the TP was part of the Liability Insurance policy. And that without a Tour Permit, the Adult leaders were personally on the hook for any issues.


This is a common misconception, and it was discussed at a round table with the council's health & safety committee which is where my the information comes from. This does not mean that you should not fill out a TP where it is required.

If your council has accident insurance, something completely different, it might have different stipulations.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby fritz1255 » Thu May 21, 2009 2:09 pm

This is a common misconception, and it was discussed at a round table with the council's health & safety committee which is where my the information comes from. This does not mean that you should not fill out a TP where it is required.
If your council has accident insurance, something completely different, it might have different stipulations.


I guess I'm not the only one who is confused about why we are doing this. I'll continue to fill them out to guard against the possibility of an overzealous camp ranger, but I still have not seen any good reason why........
fritz1255
Life
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:39 am
Location: Chester County Council

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby wagionvigil » Thu May 21, 2009 2:19 pm

There is a campground close to here that does the following. Numbers are not the correct ones used only for example

Per person per Night fee 20.00
Pay deposit of 50% with reservation - 5%
Pay in full with CC with reservation -25%
Arrive with completed tour permit and paid in advance fee is 3.50 per night per person There are actually troops that will pay full price rather than filing a tour permit and paying in advance. They are really looking after those troop funds. :x
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear, You're a Meal!"
wagionvigil
Counselor
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby FrankJ » Thu May 21, 2009 2:28 pm

My son will be the first to tell you that I am cheap. To save that I would file a TP to ... well never mind.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby wagionvigil » Thu May 21, 2009 2:34 pm

Most state parks will not allow a troop to camp unless they have a TP.
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear, You're a Meal!"
wagionvigil
Counselor
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby FrankJ » Thu May 21, 2009 3:00 pm

The only places I have ever been asked for a tour permit is Northern Tier & Philmont.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby scoutaholic » Thu May 21, 2009 3:03 pm

wagionvigil wrote:Most state parks will not allow a troop to camp unless they have a TP.


In 10 years as SM, I have NEVER had anyone other than a professional scouter ask to see our tour permit.

Go to district/council camp, they MIGHT ask, but NOONE else ever has.

Even when there was an incident and I spent hours talking to Council Headquarters, Church World Headquarters (CO), Law Enforcement, and National headquartes of the insurance company that provides insurance for our council, the Council Headquarters were the only ones to ask about the tour permit. (And they didn't bother asking me for a copy. They just asked if I had one.)
Eagle Scout 1987
OA Vigil Honor 1986
Fox - WE7-590-05-2
Currently - Troop/Team/Crew Advancement Chair & Dist Webmaster
Previously - SM, MC, CM, ACM, ADL, ASM, COR, Dist Camp Chair, PL, SPL, Scribe, Songleader, JASM, OA Chapter Officer, ...
scoutaholic
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:56 am
Location: Great Salt Lake Council - Utah

PreviousNext

Return to Camping, Hiking, and Outdoor Fun

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests